February 19, 2019 at 2:48 pm #297659
I wrote this yesterday as a response to one of your posts. It got warm outside, so I was building a shed for exercise. Putting up the rafters I fell and only have the use of one arm right now. I’ll just start a new posting because I can’t find the one, I was responding to. Thanks for working with me.
I don’t mind constructive criticism. I appreciate constructive criticism. That is why I’m here. So, stop being so trump-a-phobia with me. The goal was to understand religion and how it evolved. Got all the heavy work done and now into the fun stuff and at the point where everything is simple logic and not confusing. Larsen, what are you interested in my study of religion for? I don’t fathom you stepping outside of the bible or out of the mid-American Christian atmosphere movement that you grew up in. There are two paths in the Christian religion. The divinity and the moral teachings. The America system was put together on the moral teachings and protected from the forces of the divinity. Today most Americans cannot separate the two-central thesis. I suspect the bible was put together that way for those results.
Are you wanting data? I gave you my view of a timeline of God’s Laws evolving from Jesus to America’s constitution. Knowing that you don’t like history. I left out the connections with the Laws of Eshnunna and the Code of Hammurabi. Today I would suggest reading Michael Corbett and Julia Mitchell Corbett book, Politics and religion in the United States (1999). It refers to deists who believes in the moral teachings—but not divinity—of Jesus. Citing John Adams and Thomas Jefferson as exemplars of deists.
Notes: For anyone reading this. Deism was the belief that God created the world and allowed it to operate according to natural laws. Deists believed God did not intervene in the lives of his human creation. He did not perform miracles, answer prayer, or sustain the world by his providence. Religious belief was based on reason rather than divine revelation. This was a common belief held by the English and French when America was being established. Franklin read a series of lectures, published by the estate of British scientist Robert Boyle (1627–1691), designed to counter the influence of Deism in English religious life. Franklin wrote that these lectures “wrought an Effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them: For the Arguments of the Deists which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much Stronger than the Refutation.” He claimed he had become a “thorough Deist. If any of this is true, and it seems to be. Then Christian religion in America is based today on a movement started during the Civil War that moved the thinking of America being built on the Laws of God to having been established upon the divinity. Which is false. An atheist should understand that America was built upon the Laws of God and was purposely separated from the deity. Religion itself was meant to be part of the American System without the deity because of the moral teachings and the Laws of God.February 19, 2019 at 9:57 pm #297664
I don’t like history? That’s news to me. I don’t like the made up history you sometimes post about. Maybe that’s why you’re confused. Data from you has never been useful, so, pass on that. It’s nice you’re trying to have a discussion, but I have no idea what you’re trying to get at or why you come up with the conclusions about me that you do.
Maybe you should just let that arm rest.February 20, 2019 at 8:39 am #297690
Nothing was built on god. Building on god is like building on the wind.
However, given the holdover of the primative brain moving into the age of knowledge, the desire to hold on to life forever and avoid the pain of grief and loss made a cubby hole for god in some persons’ communities.
And the only value of this holdover idea from the ape ages, is the parts of ideology shared with cognitive and positive psychology like: The world can be a great place, someone is always with you in the dark and difficult times, create long term bonds with family, work and one or two other things. The rest of this deity is junk and that is why the founders of America did not put it out on their kitchen table nor in the constitution.
God is a phony everything and, by definition, an arrogant premise and life style.February 20, 2019 at 10:28 am #297691
Our founding fathers were not talking about the deity part of god. They were talking about the laws of god. The morality part of god. That is what they built America on, the laws of god. They basically wanted to get rid of the deity. The bible they wanted used in America is called The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth.
Point being. Our founding fathers were atheists (Deist). And they viewed Jesus as Hellenistic (Deist).
so, yea, down with deity gods.February 20, 2019 at 12:42 pm #297693
You’re talking about Thomas Jefferson. He was just one guy. Some had similar thoughts, but there were entire colonies that thought quite a bit differently.February 20, 2019 at 3:43 pm #297694
One guy named Jefferson, Adam, Franklin. And how many others met at the Greens and discussed the building of a new nation. Yes, I agree with you there were entire colonies of religions groups. But they didn’t sign or create the new nation. Our founding father were no doubt in the minority as far as atheists vs. omnists types.
The Point I would like to make here is that the American System has evolved from civilizations that may have started in prehistory. The systems of government have been improved on repeatedly and evolved. Jesus picked up the Hellenistic Judaism branch and worked upon the caste and greed parts but never got them implemented in a true government environment. They did stay alive in Jesus’s religion called Knowledge, then move to The Learned.
As all history of the Hellenistic Judaism was being wipe out of recorded history by the church it was the church itself that kept many of Jesus’s teachings alive. Given the actions of people like Jefferson gives us proof that the Hellenistic branch of the system of government was still alive. Jefferson, Adam and Franklin implemented Jesus’s system for the first time.
Top common factors
1. High protein
3. Rules of Laws
4. High knowledge level
5. Capitalist system
6. Control of greed
7. Minimal caste
8. Good monetary system
9. Belief in certain deity
13. Good trade access
The common factors of successful civilizations i n history. At the time of our founding fathers we had a mix. With the religious colonies the Deity may have reached as high a number one. As far as our founding father I don’t think the Deity would have made the list. Religion would have still been here with the Laws of God. The top seven items are crucial for successful civilizations. The exceptions might be and south and Central America. I don’t know because I haven’t checked it out.
The rules of law are the backbone for the American democratic system. I believe now 183 countries are using the same backbone in one form or another.February 20, 2019 at 4:35 pm #297695
The challenge of history is finding where to start. Socrates is usually pretty good, but he had influences too, or was it just Plato? Anyway. “Point being”, as Mike likes to say, there ain’t much that just spontaneously happened since that singularity started expanding, and eventually we’ll figure out that was caused by something else.March 14, 2019 at 12:28 pm #298017
Sorry for taking so long on the response.
Your right about the Greek think tank. Listed the common factors because it has become obvious to me that the main issue was a good government system more than religion. Religion was a by product of that quest. As John MacDonald was using Plato’s Republic to debate Jesus. Isaiah and Plato, I believe were after a system of government. Where Matthew and Mark were just following the pathway of religion. That’s why I pointed out that Plato’s republic covered all the items in Top Common factors list whereas religion does not.
Jesus basically took Plato’s Republic that was in the Hellenistic religion and was working on improvement of the minimal caste which goes hand and hand with control of greed. Using Jesus for the sin was a John the Baptist thing that the sons of Aaron may have influenced Jesus on. So, that can not be ruled out at all. I think Jesus would back up that idea of getting rid of sin by dying on the cross. But, in theory only. That’s why the hypothesis in the new book out called, The Lost Gospel covers what might have happen. Jesus may have been put to death for political reasons and the forgiveness of sin very well could have been the only thing that Mark understood. Point being that Jesus had to keep his political goals very secret. The missing piece to the puzzle is Jesus’s relationship with Sejanus. Once that is understood then Jesus’s goals and his Gnostic views come into play for a clear picture of what was going on.
Point being, Jesus was working on improving the system of government not religion. Jesus was a deist and was following the Hellenistic views. This is proven in his Gnostic teachings.March 14, 2019 at 4:53 pm #298019
From reading the Bible, going to church, and well, just being alive and awake, I’ve found nothing in Christianity that improves government besides the basic idea that government doesn’t work if people aren’t basically decent to begin with. That was not invented by Christianity. You can say things, but you have to find something to back them up. Reading the Bible, over and over, you have people talking about making the world better, having only vague ideas about feeding each other and visiting the sick, then they go on an on about prayer and worship.March 15, 2019 at 11:23 am #298026
MikeYohe, your definition of deist is, “Deists believed God did not intervene in the lives of his human creation. He did not perform miracles, answer prayer, or sustain the world by his providence.” So how can you imagine that “Jesus was a deist?”
I’m no religious scholar, but that sounds… crazy. Whatever his Gnostic teachings were, I’m pretty sure Jesus is supposed to have done miracles. Miracles are very undeist-like.
Maybe my ignorance is showing, but ‘deist Jesus’ is an oxymoron to me.March 16, 2019 at 1:34 am #298051
You are correct. “Deist Jesus” is an oxymoron. That is why you never hear it being used. When it stops being an oxymoron is when we finally come out of the Dark Ages of religion. At the time of our founding fathers of America. Deist Jesus was not uncommon. Even in England it was common and debated. At the age of fifteen, Benjamin Franklin read a series of lectures, published by the estate of British scientist Robert Boyle (1627–1691) known as the Father of Science, designed to counter the influence of Deism in English religious life.
Deism was the belief that God created the world and allowed it to operate according to natural laws. Deists believed God did not intervene in the lives of his human creation. He did not perform miracles, answer prayer, or sustain the world by his providence. Religious belief was based on reason rather than divine revelation.
In his Autobiography, Franklin wrote that these lectures “wrought an Effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them: For the Arguments of the Deists which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much Stronger than the Refutation.” He claimed he had become a “thorough Deist.
Christian deism is a standpoint in the philosophy of religion, which branches from Christianity. It refers to a deist who believes in the moral teachings—but not divinity—of Jesus. Corbett and Corbett (1999) cite John Adams and Thomas Jefferson as exemplars.
In Judah you had two main religious parties. The Pharisees and the Sadducees. The Pharisees were Torah thumping nationalists and the Sadducees were the atheists (deists) using the Hellenization System of government. Rome took over these countries from Greece and continued the Hellenization System, a deism system of government for controlling areas like Judah. The Sadducees were mostly rich and upper class. Jesus was a Sadducees and the Sadducees were in charge under a Roman ruler and controlled the governance of the people.
Jesus was getting setup to be the Sadducee ruler of Israel just as soon as Lucius Aelius Sejanus became the ruler of Rome by overthrowing Tiberius Caesar. Caesar killed Sejanus and that was the end of Jesus’ political career. Jesus’ political team broke-up and spread out. Christianity started evolving in four different directions of belief and understanding.
In the Coptic Gospels there are no miracles by Jesus or anyone else.March 16, 2019 at 11:49 am #298063
Sorry. This thread is about the belief that America was build on God, so I don’t think I should carry on with questions about the bizarre idea that a guy who was supposedly conceived through immaculate conception and performed miracles, didn’t think his dad (who is a god), is a deist.
Maybe I can be enlightened somewhere else.March 16, 2019 at 1:44 pm #298068
You are correct. “Deist Jesus” is an oxymoron. That is why you never hear it being used. When it stops being an oxymoron is when we finally come out of the Dark Ages of religion.
We will be out of the Dark Ages when we stop caring what a character in a story thought. You approach the Bible as a window into actual thoughts of the people named in the stories. It’s a window into the thoughts of the authors and listeners.March 17, 2019 at 11:43 am #298072
I agree, all we have on data from the past is what the scholars base their hypothesis on. The question is, do you and I have more data available to us because of the network than scholars of the past? And will the scholars be able to publish their true thoughts and ideas without repercussions from the establishments they work for?
Here 3point14rat wants to be enlightened. And he came to a progressive site. What history is telling us is that the Enlightened people like Jefferson were the progressives of the past. History has named that time period The Age of Enlightenment. To be able to have personal views and options on religion the way people due today came about from that progressive movement. The progressives of the past made it possible for Christianity to evolve. Along with a war in France and America that was fueled by the progressive movements.
So, in a way this is actually a post about enlightenment too. The Age of Enlightenment in Europe influenced people like Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson in colonial America that governments should be based on natural rights, known as The Laws of God in a functioning political democracy. The Laws of God had a subversive effect on the concepts of a personal God and individual salvation that were central to the type of Christianity that came to be in America. The more rarefied the religion of the Deists became, the less it offered those who sought solace or salvation. Or put another way, the progressives didn’t know when to stop pushing for change and went past where the common working people were willing to go. Sort of the same action that is taken place today.March 19, 2019 at 4:55 pm #298111
MikeYoho, don’t worry about not explaining what you mean here. I might be better to start a new post and not explain yourself in it.
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