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Battle of Belleau Woods WWI


Forums Forums Politics and Social Issues Battle of Belleau Woods WWI

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 43 total)
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  • #334063
    @timb
    Participant

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Belleau_Wood

    A 1919 painting of the “Wheatfield Charge” of the 6th Marines at Belleau Wood.  The paining was done in 1919. 259 Marines started in the Charge. 19 finished at Boureges.  Overall there were almost 10,000 American Marine casualties in the Battle of Belleau Wood, France.  Over 1800 of those were deaths, many of whom were buried there.

    Legend has it that our German enemies, at the time, said that the Americans fought as if possessed.  And thusly the Germans were said to call them Devil Dogs or Hell Hounds.

    And now we learn that the current Commander in Chief of the US military, called them suckers or losers.

    That was earlier this year when he was scheduled to honor them by attending a ceremony at the cemetery there.  But the t rump was afraid that the rain that day would mess up his hair.  But to justify not attending, he lied and said that neither the helicopter nor his limo could take him there, safely. And privately he said to some of his attendants that the soldiers buried there were losers and suckers, anyway.

    The t rump can’t fathom patriotism because he is fundamentally unAmerican.  He cannot fathom the idea of personal sacrifice for others.  Hence the only patriotism that he can portray is fake, like his hugging and otherwise fondling of the Flag whenever he gets the chance.

    But for someone who is all about themselves, it seems a perfectly consistent philosophy to consider soldiers who give their life or health for their country, to be losers and suckers.

    #334080
    @thatoneguy
    Participant

    Color me skeptical.  Seems like if it was real we would have heard about when it supposedly happened 2 years ago instead of in the middle of election season.

    Anyway, I was in 3/6 fwiw,  and here’s some trivia about Belleau Wood — the “devil dogs” name was made up by a journalist. The Germans never called Marines that and the German word for it — Teufelhunden isn’t even a real German word.  The Marine Corps has always had good PR.

    #334123
    @sree
    Participant

    Color me skeptical.  Seems like if it was real we would have heard about when it supposedly happened 2 years ago instead of in the middle of election season.

    You are right. It’s similar to the case in which a “me too” woman who came back from the distant past to blame Kavanaugh for a misdeed just when he gets to be appointed Chief Justice.

    As for “losers and suckers”, this utterance does have a Trump-like ring to it. I am inclined to believe that it was “photoshopped” by Jeffery Goldberg to make it look like Trump did say it in the context framed by Goldberg. Humiliating Trump to rein him in or destroy him has become a national pastime.

     

    #334125
    @sree
    Participant

    @timb

    But for someone who is all about themselves, it seems a perfectly consistent philosophy to consider soldiers who give their life or health for their country, to be losers and suckers.

    The Battle at Belleau Woods, with nearly 10,000 casualties, was a bloody one and right up there with the Battle of Stalingrad with 2 million casualties.

    What is the rationale behind our mindless, annual celebration of human misery in past wars? Is it a humanist moral to honor those who died for their country by killing others?

    In India, there is still a lingering belief that it is honorable for a woman to burn on her husband’s funeral pyre. Would you view those who keep up this practice losers and suckers?

    #334131
    @timb
    Participant

    In India, there is still a lingering belief that it is honorable for a woman to burn on her husband’s funeral pyre. Would you view those who keep up this practice losers and suckers?

    Yes, I would call them horribly and fatally socially misguided.

    But I don’t think that our dead and mutilated veterans are losers and suckers.

    But I see the consistency of disdaining our military heroes, if one is AGAINST WAR.

    Are you and the t rump so intently opposed to war that you would call out revering the self-sacrificing troops as an act of hypocrisy?  If so, then the t rump should just admit his personal view that they are suckers and losers.

    The Germans never called Marines that (devildogs) and the German word for it — Teufelhunden isn’t even a real German word.  The Marine Corps has always had good PR.

    What DO you call 259 Marines charging across a field, and 240 of those dying to achieve the objective that only 19 survived for?  Losers? Suckers? (Not to mention the other 1600-ish Americans who died at Belleau Wood). There is a German word “hollenhunds” for “hell hounds”.

    Here’s what the Germans thought of the American Marines after WWI.

    https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/57121/42-quotes-germans-about-american-troops-after-world-war-i

    Here is one quote.  There are 41 more on the above site.

    I fought in campaigns against the Russian Army, the Serbian Army, the Roumanian Army, the British Army, the French Army, and the American Army. All told in this war I have participated in more than 80 battles. I have found your American Army the most honorable of all our enemies. You have also been the bravest of our enemies and in fact the only ones who have attacked us seriously in this year’s battles. I therefore honor you, and, now that the war is over, I stand ready, for my part, to accept you as a friend.”

    —Chief of Staff for General v. Einem, commander of the Third German Army

    So the German enemy honored those dead, even if our CinC thinks they were suckers and losers.

    Don’t worry, though, oneguy, the t rump probably doesn’t think you were a sucker or loser, just because you served in the military.  Because you didn’t die, or suffer serious injury, or get captured.  In the t rump’s book, if you are lucky when you do stupid things (like fight for your country), you are not so much a sucker or loser.  In that case, you can be a hero and march in parades for him, unless you lost your legs or something. In that case you are just an embarrassment to him.

     

    #334141

    If any American doesn’t know by now the character of Donald Trump they simply don’t want to know. Trump supporters are simply incapable of admitting they made a mistake in voting for him. I don’t blame anyone who voted for him in 2016 though I wasn’t among them. Hillary Clinton didn’t seem to learn anything from the abrupt change in the public mood about foreign wars, wars that from Vietnam onward were brutal, cruel, and completely unnecessary. Much of Trump’s appeal was based on his promise to never get involved in these bloody foreign adventures. Hillary Clinton was silent on the subject. That was then and this is now as they say and anyone who would cast their vote for Donald Trump after his ongoing attempt to undermine public confidence in our elections, the most sacred of our national traditions, and after his personal effort to stoke violent confrontations in the streets of our cities simply have no love for this nation. Donald Trump is a force for chaos and mayhem. He’d like nothing more than a race war. To see blood in our streets is the only way he can thrive. I’m sorry to say this but to support such a politician is to care nothing about the future of this nation.

    #334155
    @sree
    Participant

    Yes, I would call them horribly and fatally socially misguided.

    A widow goaded by her priest to step onto a funeral pyre is not different from citizens indoctrinated by politicians to die for their country.

    But I don’t think that our dead and mutilated veterans are losers and suckers.

    No, they are not if they were not drafted and forced to go to war and you believe that they suffered and died for a worthy and just cause. The Hindu priest advocating Sati would believe that widows die for a just cause.

    But I see the consistency of disdaining our military heroes, if one is AGAINST WAR.

    Military heroism is part and parcel of the warrior code. In WW2, Japanese pilots refused to wear parachutes and were prepared to fight to the death if they couldn’t come home victorious. And we are all too familiar with the suicide bomber cry of Ala Akbar. No one would disdain military heroes; especially, a Commander-in-Chief who is as proud of his armed forces as Donald Trump. And yet, he would not waste a single soldier in endless wars. Thank God, we have a humanist President.

    #334169

    Thank God, we have a humanist President.

    What orifice did sree pull that one out of?  These people don’t even know what words mean, but if it sounds good they’ll insert, no matter.

    But on to the main topic of Trump often repeated contempt for soldiers.

    Excellent Maddow segment on 09/04/2020 illustrated why unlike other #Trump admin scandals, the #military “suckers” and “losers” scandal brought about by a bombshell piece on The #Atlantic, will be a hard one to dismiss as “fake news”.

    The problem for Trump, as Maddow correctly pointed out, is that way before the bombshell piece,

    he had already demonstrated a pattern of berating the service of men and women in the military.

    The Atlantic piece is therefore just a confirmation of what most Americans already suspected about him.

    #334170

    Donald Trump Coward in Chief.

     

    THE NATIONAL INTEREST  –  By Jonathan Chait

    SEPT. 4, 2020
    Here’s All the Corroboration for the Atlantic Story on Trump Attacking Troops

    However, that principle obviously does not apply to this administration. Lying is not only common in the Trump administration, it is the cultural glue that holds the president’s coalition together. A willingness to endorse his lies is the most common method Trump uses to identify his loyalists. This is why the White House media was so flabbergasted when Sean Spicer angrily denounced reporters for accurately conveying crowd estimates at Trump’s inauguration: He blew up the presumption of honesty that gives weight to on-the-record denials on day one of the presidency.

    This does not prove Trump’s supporters are lying in this instance: Sometimes liars tell the truth. But are they telling the truth in this instance?

    While it’s impossible to directly prove any of these allegations, there is an impressive amount of corroborating evidence. Almost all of it supports Goldberg’s reporting.

    One piece of evidence works against The Atlantic: John Bolton’s memoir emphasizes different reasons Trump canceled a visit to an American military cemetery in France in 2018. Goldberg’s four sources say Trump worried about the effect of rain on his hair, and commented, “Why should I go to that cemetery? It’s filled with losers.” …

    Bolton says …

    On the other side, however, there are many pieces of supporting evidence. The Associated Press, New York Times, Fox News (!) and Washington Post quickly confirmed Goldberg’s reporting. The Post added several related details, in addition to Trump describing fallen soldiers as “losers.” “In one account, the president told senior advisers that he didn’t understand why the U.S. government placed such value on finding soldiers missing in action because they had performed poorly and gotten caught and deserved what they got, according to a person familiar with the discussion.”

    What’s more, other sources have claimed that Trump dismisses the value of military service. Michael Cohen testified in 2018 that Trump admitted faking bone spurs to avoid serving in Vietnam and told him, “You think I’m stupid? I wasn’t going to Vietnam.” Mary Trump, in a previously recorded interview, said Trump threatened to disown one of her sons if he enlisted in the military. (It’s significant that she offered this account before Goldberg’s story, and thus could not have crafted it to fit a narrative created by Goldberg.)

    Trump’s denial itself contains provable falsehoods: …

    https :  //nymag _ com/intelligencer/2020/09/corroboration-atlantic-report-trump-troops-soldiers-losers-cemetary-amputees _ html

     

    Trump made up injury to dodge Vietnam service, his former lawyer testifies
    Leo Shane III
    February 27, 2019

    www _ militarytimes _ com/news/pentagon-congress/2019/02/27/trumps-lawyer-no-basis-for-presidents-medical-deferment-from-vietnam/

     

    Michael Cohen, who also worked as a fixer for Trump before his election, said he was tasked with tamping down criticism of the military deferment as the presidential candidate simultaneously mocked Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, for being regarded as a military hero. “I like people who weren’t captured,” Trump said during a July 2015 interview.

    “Mr. Trump claimed (his medical deferment) was because of a bone spur, but when I asked for medical records, he gave me none and said there was no surgery,” Cohen told members of the House Oversight Committee. “He told me not to answer the specific questions by reporters but rather offer simply the fact that he received a medical deferment.

    “He finished the conversation with the following comment: ‘You think I’m stupid, I wasn’t going to Vietnam.’” …

     

    With new evidence of draft-dodging, here’s a quick reminder of how Trump talks about the troops
    The president adores the military, as long as they agree with him.
    LUKE BARNESDEC 27, 2018

    https:   //archive _ thinkprogress _ org/trump-draft-dodge-bone-spurs-vietnam-war-rhetoric-troops-befce1235df6/

    On Wednesday, amid the continued turmoil in his national security team, President Trump traveled to al-Asad Airbase in Iraq to congratulate U.S. troops stationed there and further bolster his tough-on-defense image.

    During the trip Trump falsely claimed that the military had gotten its biggest pay rise in ten years and inadvertently exposed the location of Navy SEAL Team 5. But that’s not all.

    The same day, a new report from The New York Times revealed the true extent of Trump’s fealty to the military. The story claims that Trump was diagnosed with bone spurs in 1968 by a former tenant as a favor to his father, property developer Fred C. Trump. …

     

    Donald Trump avoided the military draft 5 times, but it wasn’t uncommon for young men from influential families to do so during the Vietnam War  

    {Like that makes it okay.  Historic note, after Vietnam war those rich parents made sure their precious ones would never be subjected to a draft and turned our military service into all volunteer, guaranteeing a place for all our poor schmucks with no other future to hope for, to go to. }
    Mariana Alfaro
    Dec 26, 2018

    https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-avoided-the-military-draft-which-was-common-at-the-time-vietnam-war-2018-12

     

    https :   //www _ nytimes _ com/2016/08/02/us/politics/donald-trump-draft-record.html

     

     

    #334183
    @timb
    Participant

    Jeebus, sree, the fact that some cultures think it is great to do horrific things to people in the name of some superstitious idea of honor, doesn’t mean that we have to accept it.  If they think it is honorable to cut off a girl’s clit, that ain’t honorable from an American point of view.  If they think it is honorable for a widow to burn herself alive, that ain’t honorable from an American point of view.

    What is honorable from an American point of view is our veterans who have fought and bled and died for freedom for the rest of us.

    If a pathetic Commander in Chief dishonors them, then he ain’t honorable from an American point of view.

    And If a troll tries to acrobatically jump thru hoops of illogic to defend such a pathetic dickwad, then that little troll ain’t honorable from an American point of view, either.

    #334197
    @thatoneguy
    Participant

    Using Trump’s draft dodging as corroboration of his supposed comments is a weak ass argument.  A person can still respect the military without serving.

    And there is no lack of boomer men who refused to go to Vietnam who later became pro military — Bill Clinton and George Bush immediately come to mind.   There is a lot of gray area with this subject.

    #334198
    @thatoneguy
    Participant

    What is the rationale behind our mindless, annual celebration of human misery in past wars? Is it a humanist moral to honor those who died for their country by killing others?

    You’ve got a point there.

    I think it’s good and healthy to remember the fallen in wars that affected a community as a whole. It probably helps people to move on — but there aren’t many examples of that in American history.   Most of the military hero-worship we see today is a charade because very few modern Americans have anything to do with the military.

    When politicians honor war dead from long ago it’s just part of the usual dog and pony show, and most people realize that, but it’s something that comes with the job.

     

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by thatoneguy.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by thatoneguy.
    #334200
    @sree
    Participant

    What is honorable from an American point of view is our veterans who have fought and bled and died for freedom for the rest of us.

    Freedom to do what? Freedom for low lifers abetted by cowardly governors and mayors to loot and burn private businesses and properties of law-abiding citizens?

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Sree.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Sree.
    #334202

    @guy    Using Trump’s draft dodging as corroboration of his supposed comments is a weak ass argument.  A person can still respect the military without serving.

    The pattern is there.  The man’s contempt for military personal is there for all to hear.  Why you ignore and try to run cover, is anyone’s guess.

     

    #334203
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