Welcome


Thank you for visiting our new forum! To start posting again please follow the link below to create a new password. First time forum users please follow the link to register. CFI thanks you for continuing the discussion on evidence-based thinking and humanist values.

Can Nature and God be the same thing?


Forums Forums Humanism Can Nature and God be the same thing?

Viewing 9 posts - 211 through 219 (of 219 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #326411

    We are our brain and our bodies are a means for our brain to interact with it’s surroundings and survive by bringing in energy.

    Many other living things simply exist as an algorithm of chemical reactions that result in an organism that either produces offspring or doesn’t.

    I’ve enjoyed much of what you and W4U have written here, but gotta stop you on the sentence that followed this one:

    We are our brain and our bodies are a means for our brain to interact with it’s surroundings and survive by bringing in energy.

    This is the basic plan for all life forms, going back to the dawn of life.  These days scientists have been discovering that cells have actual reasoning abilities, sensing abilities, decision making moment.  Of course those ability are very limited, but their requirements are very limit.

    We can not understand the organism without understanding it’s environment.  The more complex the human environment becomes, the more fantastical our minds become, (so much so that these days our brains are falling out, but that a different thread).

    Evolution looked at in broad outline, is nothing but the progression of sensing and processing abilities – the complimented by ever greater manipulatory abilities.  All dedicated to harvesting the environment being made available to it.

    Yes the human brain is Evolution’s jet engine (self-reflection and memory) taking flight into a whole different realm, true enough, but fundamentally it’s following the same pattern of all creatures, and aspects of us are found throughout the natural world.

    #326435
    @3point14rat
    Participant

    CC, it’s emotions that takes “Evolution’s jet engine” and flies us to the moon or into the Twin Towers.

    No matter how many different environments spawn organisms, no cell will evolve that will come within a country mile of the aggerate abilities of a large clump of cells. It’s not even a comparison, really. There’s a minimum level of complexity require to reach the most basic functions of a multicellular organism, and the more complex the organism the greater the abilities. In this discussion, single cells don’t rate much of a mention.

    I don’t think our environment is too complex for our brains. For thousands of years we’ve been living in societies where no one knows how to do everything. It’s not as though we all need to know how to make ventilators or be a doctor or report the news. What we need are competent people to do those things and we need to support them in their efforts. Since their efforts support us while we support them in theirs, theoretically, society should be a big, happy circle of support. It’s the brains of those folks who don’t get that basic concept that ruin things.

    Why are we (the smart ones on this forum) able to understand this stuff while so many of our neighbors can’t? I certainly don’t believe I’m smarter than most people, but I seem to be able to understand some basic concepts that they can’t.

    We need to figure out how to fix the brain defect that allows smart people to believe stupid things.

    #326439

    no cell will evolve that will come within a country mile of the aggregate abilities of a large clump of cells.

    But, but, that’s exactly what happened to produce us and every other biological complexity on this here planet.

    Single cells learned to manage themselves, then they learned to cooperate, then all sorts of things started happening.

    Understanding us today, I believe is impossible. without realistically appreciating where we came from.  Which can’t be done without also giving the lowly single cell its due.

    Key concept Fractals, of course fractals in biology don’t exclude emergent properties developing and combining and, well evolving and producing new emergent properties.

     

    #326441

    We need to figure out how to fix the brain defect that allows smart people to believe stupid things.

    I would think that’s impossible without explicitly insisting that honesty is paramount, that we need each other to keep ourselves honest, that being fact-corrected is not a moral insult upon one’s being – it’s a learning opportunity.

    and also appreciating that the Universe created us, it’s not the other way around – which is exactly what the god-fearing and other self-serving delusionals are doing.

    Which is exactly where my insistence on recognizing the fundamental qualitative difference between our Human Mindscape (everything that hold our ears apart) and Physical Reality – the matrix we are embedded within for our momentary flash of existence.

    ==================================================================

    Now I’m constantly getting knocked that you’ll never get anyway with the faith-shackled, because I’m too rough, edgy, it makes people clam up their minds and reinforces their worst qualities.  It’s probably true, but I’ve been shackled by this inner faith that everyone has a object conscious inside, that somewhere they do want to understand the reality of the world around them.  It’s been made clear to me for a couple decades now, how foolish that is, some people care not a wit for learning or honesty or understanding and sleep just fine, never experiencing self-reflection, nor scruples.

    So for quite some time, though it seems to go unnoticed, I’m superficially addressing the faith-blinded, but I’m actually trying to get through to those who are supposedly in my chorus, because I’ve found that most liberal feelie, mealie, tree hungers, have little actual depth when it comes to what they believe in when it comes to nature or, or evolution, or the concept of God.  Liberals constantly roll over every time someone waves their self-certain (totalitarian even)  “Religious Faith” flag and we never take the time to point out that they are in no position to speak for God, because any actual God is way Beyond Human Understanding – they have merely contorted their own EGO’s into an image of God.  etc, etc.

    #326450
    @3point14rat
    Participant

    CC:  “But, but, that’s exactly what happened to produce us and every other biological complexity on this here planet.”

    I agree that evolution can go from simple to complex (and vise versa). I was talking about the level of comprehension we’re capable of is marred by some other aspects of our big brains, namely emotions.

    CC:  “I would think that’s impossible without explicitly insisting that honesty is paramount, that we need each other to keep ourselves honest, that being fact-corrected is not a moral insult upon one’s being – it’s a learning opportunity.”

    Exactly. That’s one of those things that you and I see as so fundamental and obvious that we can’t understand how others can’t see it.

    Even those who are religious see the need for logic and rationality. But they apply it everywhere except their religious belief, twisting it into something else when trying to use it to justify that belief.

    =========================

    CC, I know you’re familiar with S. J. Gould, so you might be familiar with the word ‘spandrel’. It was already a word used in architecture, but he used it to describe a feature that is the accidental byproduct of evolution. The evolutionary history of something is determined by it’s origin, and any aspect of it that is not necessary but is rather an accidental byproduct, is a ‘spandrel’. **Feel free to ignore my word-salad and look up ‘spandrel’ if you don’t know what it means.**

    “Gould believes that many human behavioural traits are spandrels — by-products of the brain we evolved in the African savannah; the ability to read Nature is a spandrel, not a product of natural selection.” [From https://www.nature.com/articles/35095099]

    Ever since I read whichever book Gould talks about spandrels [it was back in the early 2000’s and I forget], I thought our religious tendencies are a spandrel. We evolved a big brain from the normal sized brain that was in our ancestors, and this inevitably left us with holes and weaknesses in our mental abilities.

     

     

    #326665
    @write4u
    Participant

    cc-v.3 said; Evolution looked at in broad outline, is nothing but the progression of sensing and processing abilities – the complimented by ever greater manipulatory abilities.  All dedicated to harvesting the environment being made available to it.

    I agree. It is process of constant refinement and the weeding out of the weaker less developed patterns. Natural selection does not always select for best adapted but also by selecting out the least adapted.  Evolution can be achieved by both active an active or a passive processes. It depends on what the evolving environment dictates.

    Evolution can take some strange paths. It is suspected that bacteria and viruses had the same common ancestor and that the virus is a “dumbed” down version of bacteria.  Somewhat similar to humans and other great apes.

    #326802

    Evolution can be achieved by both active an active or a passive processes.

    Agreed, nothing dramatic needed.  All that needs to happen is that the death rate is higher than the birth rate, when that equation reaches zero, they are extinct. It may take a few generations or a few centuries, or millennia but like the song says, in the end it’s like the blink of an eye.

    #327093
    @write4u
    Participant

    cc-v.3 said: But, but, that’s exactly what happened to produce us and every other biological complexity on this here planet.

    Single cells learned to manage themselves, then they learned to cooperate, then all sorts of things started happening.

    Understanding us today, I believe is impossible. without realistically appreciating where we came from.  Which can’t be done without also giving the lowly single cell its due.

    Key concept Fractals, of course fractals in biology don’t exclude emergent properties developing and combining and, well evolving and producing new emergent properties.

    Exactly, We need only look at the incredible diversity in life forms from basically the same bio-chemistry.

    Here is a little example of interesting varieties

    #327164

    Frog as civil engineer.  Cool.

    I was talking about the level of comprehension we’re capable of is marred by some other aspects of our big brains, namely emotions.

    I always figured it more like mental/psychologic filters (combination of genetics and that spark of life at that particular moment and place one is conceived at)

    through which we view the world unfolding around us.  Of course, nine month’s of gestation within mom’s thin skin also imprints on that “mental filter.”

    But, emotions, passions, certainly makes a big difference in what you can do with your particular perceptions and desires.

Viewing 9 posts - 211 through 219 (of 219 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.