September 21, 2020 at 9:05 pm #335096
Here in Alberta, virtually all deaths have been seniors who have exceeded their average lifespan already and would have died anyway of some preexisting condition, if not simply old-age.
Unfortunately, it’s not everyone with pre-existing conditions or old age who end up with worse issues or die due to COVID. Some perfectly healthy young people have died from COVID-19 and some who lived end up with heart issues. Even other doctors I’ve talked to personally have said they are finding high school football players are ending up with heart problems from COVID and it doesn’t just go away or hasn’t within the months COVID-19 has occurred. They also agree the disease is very insidious. Here you can find more medical articles about COVID-19. You can find my link to heart issues somewhere in this conversation on previous pages.
Here’s one about the heart and COVID-19, but isn’t specific to young people: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2763846?resultClick=1September 21, 2020 at 9:54 pm #335097@timbParticipant
believer said: The bottom line here is that perfectly valid studies clearly show that up to 40% of COVID-19 cases are so mild that the person doesn’t even know they are infected.
We have known for several months that many many people who have COVID do not show symptoms. It is why the virus can be SO contagious. Many who contract it show NO SYMPTOMS, and hence may then spread the disease willy nilly.
Figures from other locations such as South Korea ( considered some of the most reliable ) show up to 90% experience no symptoms.
If true, this could support the idea that a small infectious dose can result in milder cases. Because everyone wearing masks, would mean that if they DO get infected, it would likely be with a small infectious dose of virus. All of the South Koreans, unlike all Americans, care enough about their fellow countrymen to wear masks.
Someone running a business or not wearing a mask in an area where there is no virus does not contribute the death of anyone’s grandmother.
An area where there is no virus? Oh you mean where 100 % of the population are tested every few days, so that they can know that there is no virus present?
You declare that the illness is so mild that up to 90% of people may never even know they have it? But then you imply that you can know where the virus is, without constant universal testing?
200,000 Americans dead so far, and your advice is to forego even wearing masks, if it SEEMS that the virus is not in a particular area.
I have been following the emerging pandemic, as you can see, if you start at the beginning of this thread, which was in February.
All of the info in totality so far, has documented the impact of increasing numbers of cases, which is to result in a % of deaths within another 2-4 weeks. This has correlated OVER and OVER and OVER with how much the public actively participates in social distancing, mask wearing, and basic contagion limiting actions.
When people BELIEVE that the virus is insignificant, they let up on even the simple do-able contagion-limiting actions. New infection #’s go up, and within weeks death totals go up.
You are contributing to DEATHS, believer. Does that warrant an epithet, here and there?
Yeah, I think so, because I’m damn pissed about jackasses who think they know something, when they DON’T, and when their BS can contribute to more DEATH by spreading their poorly thought out opinions.
And quit making excuses about not posting links to support your BS. You can post most links immediately, if you only include one link per post.September 21, 2020 at 10:28 pm #335103@sreeParticipant
Why am I so confident that you are full of crap with that assertion?
Can we have a conversation that allows more than your viewpoint? We can’t breathe.September 21, 2020 at 10:44 pm #335106@thatoneguyParticipant
The bottom line here is that perfectly valid studies clearly show that up to 40% of COVID-19 cases are so mild that the person doesn’t even know they are infected. Figures from other locations such as South Korea ( considered some of the most reliable ) show up to 90% experience no symptoms. Most of the remainder of the the cases have mild symptoms that are gone in 14 days. A very small percentage of the rest experience serious symptoms that they fully recover from.
Finally a tiny percentage, of which virtually all are high-risk individuals, primarily the elderly, or those with preexisting immunocompromised conditions will get serious lasting complications or die. Here in Alberta, virtually all deaths have been seniors who have exceeded their average lifespan already and would have died anyway of some preexisting condition, if not simply old-age.
When that situation is compared with models showing the projected death toll from the managerial consequences of the pandemic, including the global economic lockdowns, the losses are in the millions. That doesn’t even begin to cover the millions more whose standard of living will never recover.
Those who want to be glib about it and think this issue is only as simple as their personal experiences, or have bought into the fear mongering headlines, or were borderline germaphobes to begin with, are contributing to that death and misery by prolonging the measures that have brought them about. Someone running a business or not wearing a mask in an area where there is no virus does not contribute the death of anyone’s grandmother.
I am mostly in agreement. We know covid19 is a significant threat to the elderly and unhealthy but not to anybody else.
We know the media were trying to spread alarm, although that has quieted down.
We don’t know how bad the fallout from the managerial effects will be, but for some people it has been very bad — and the US government hasn’t really helped out on that end. People are right to be angry and suspicious of those in power.September 21, 2020 at 10:56 pm #335108
but not to anybody else.
Not 100% true. Even a mild case can leave a person with blood clots, leading to strokes or cardiopulmonary problems. It can also lead to heart damage, lung damage, kidney damage or other possible lasting problems and they are seeing them in high school football players and so far they haven’t recovered from the heart issues. If you get even a mild case, you risk having possible lifelong damage and that’s what people are not getting through their sick heads thinking they can survive it with no problems. Simply not true.
We know the media were trying to spread alarm, although that has quieted down.
That’s not the media saying these things- JAMA, NEJM, and WHO are saying these things. I have even personally talked to doctors who agree that COVID-19 is insidious, but if you want it, you have get it, just don’t give it to anyone else, because sane educated people do not want this crap.
- This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Mriana.
September 21, 2020 at 11:09 pm #335112
- This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Mriana.
We can’t breathe.
What? You have COVID-19 or a knee to the back of your neck? Maybe if you’re in that much pain you need to croak. What? That’s what you think of others who are old or sick or disabled, yet still enjoy life despite all of that. You think they all need to die, so if you can’t breathe…September 21, 2020 at 11:46 pm #335114
@mriana Yes there is a low number of cases that fall outside the normal high-risk criteria. However in normal everyday living there are also people who fall outside the societal norms, like people with allergies to bee stings or nuts, and those can also kill, but we don’t put millions of other people’s lives and livelihoods at risk to accommodate them. The ownice is ( and should rightly be ) primarily on them to take measures to avoid exposure.
Also, one theory for the outliers is that some people are genetically predisposed to developing more severe cases of Covid-19 than others. For example, Philip Murphy, a biomedical researcher at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told Science Magazine’s Jocelyn Kaiser that variations in a person’s ACE2 gene receptor potentially “could make it easier or harder for the virus to get into lung cells.”
Let’s face it, a variation in a gene receptor is a preexisting condition. So just because we haven’t positively identified the preexisting condition, doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Meanwhile, do you really think it’s right for literally millions of lives and livelihoods to be destroyed to accommodate these few exceptions? Would it not make more sense to save more lives, livelihoods, and our quality of life as a free civilization, while also doing our best to prevent these few exceptions from happening?September 21, 2020 at 11:58 pm #335115
@believer The problem with not doing lockdowns, wearing masks, social distancing, etc etc is that it spreads the virus and idea of doing all these things is an attempt to control and slow the virus so that the hospitals aren’t overwhelmed, as well as protect those (some healthy individuals) from lifelong health issues or worse death. If you can’t deal with this, then you’re the one who has the problem, not society. The economy won’t get better if people are sick, end up being long haulers, have more health issues due to the virus, or die. The economy is only going to get worse because of human stupidity of running around ignoring science.
Meanwhile, do you really think it’s right for literally millions of lives and livelihoods to be destroyed to accommodate these few exceptions? Would it not make more sense to save more lives, livelihoods, and our quality of life as a free civilization, while also doing our best to prevent these few exceptions from happening?
As I said, the economy is still going to suck even if you force people back to work and make them sick with COVID-19. In fact, the economy will worsen and it is worsening now that some humans are stupid enough to eat at restaurants and go to bars, because they are getting sick and can’t work because they are sick. It is not right to go to work with this virus and infect people with it. It is not right to do less testing. We should be doing more testing and having people stay home if they test positive, which many will. You can only save more lives if you follow the science and not the stupid dotard who doesn’t care if people die from COVID-19. In fact, he seem sickenly glad to make people sick and die. We will save millions if we listen to Dr Fauci and others like him to use science and recommend what it takes to not spread the virus and prevent getting it, even if it means lockdowns. The economy isn’t going to be what saves people. Science is what will save people. That and a vaccine that is tested thoroughly and not done at the stupid dotard’s “warp speed”.September 22, 2020 at 12:05 am #335116
@timb You are the perfect example for someone who has fallen for the scare tactic that because so many people can have COVID-19 and not know it, it is therefore even more scary. A non-germaphobe would argue that if the disease is so mild that the vast majority of people either don’t know they have or get mild symptoms for 14 days, that it really isn’t that bad. Here in Alberta we had a group of doctors who attended a curling tournament. When they came back they tested themselves and found they had it, but the symptoms were so mild they didn’t even notice. Now if a disease is so mild that even doctors don’t know they have it, how bad is it? Really?
Yes there are more serious cases, but none of that data negates the consequences of the more serious and far reaching problems created by the lockdowns and other measures. However that aspect is rarely talked about. There are a number of studies and stats to support this, but my posts keep getting blocked when I include links, so you’d have to start Googling it yourself. Before the pandemic 250,000 deaths per year were attributed to poverty.
The WHO has estimated millions worldwide will be pushed into a state of abject poverty from the economic lockdowns, and that it could take decades to recover. By then millions more will have died. People need to quit hiding behind their masks and lockdowns and get back to work and take their chances, while those at high risk are protected by doing what mostly should have been done before the pandemic anyway, but was often ignored because of a lack of funding or quality of care.September 22, 2020 at 12:17 am #335117
People need to quit hiding behind their masks and lockdowns and get back to work and take their chances, while those at high risk are protected by doing what mostly should have been done before the pandemic anyway, but was often ignored because of a lack of funding or quality of care.
No, science shows we need to be wearing the masks in order to slow the spread of the virus and it also shows that it gives the wear some protection too. To go without one is to disregard science. Wear the mask. That cannot be emphasized enough. What you are spewing is anti-science and a total disregard for what the true medical scientist are saying. You’re listening to the dotard’s butt kissers. I’ve going to work throughout this whole damn thing, but I wear a mask and I refuse to get this virus and end up living with health issues that could shorten my life. I will wear the mask until a descent vaccine come out and it will not be during the dotard’s reign. He just wants to kill people and whatever vaccine he pushes out will not be safe and risks killing even more people. A safe and reliable (as reliable as a flu vaccine at least) won’t be out until probably next year or five years from now, so smart people who listen to medical scientists will be wearing masks for a long time. People who ignore science and ignore the real medical doctors stupidly go around not wearing masks or using them as snot catchers or chin slings, spreading the virus to others and those are the people who also don’t give a damn who they kill. I for one will not kill the grandmother who comes through my line at work nor do I plan on risking my health and life.
By forcing people to not wear masks in public and not social distance you are choosing to destroy the economy and kill millions. If we wear the masks and social distance, hospitals will not be as stressed and fewer people will die.
Do us all a favour and stop pushing bogus science.September 22, 2020 at 12:33 am #335118
@mriana I would agree with you if the statistics on poverty and death along with the impact of the economic lockdown on poverty supported it, but they don’t, and literally millions more lives than those who would die from COVID-19 are at stake. And that doesn’t include the stats on the how education and other factors affects mortality rates. Last month in British Columbia more people died of suicide and overdoses than COVID-19 because of the increased anxiety and an absence of their usual “fix” which in some cases includes legal prescriptions, because transportation blocks have cut-off their supplies, so they turned to deadly replacements. We need to look at the bigger picture. It’s not simply about that little virus under the microscope.
Based on your personal experiences and the information you’ve looked at so far, it’s fine to take an opposing position. However you might be interested to know that I’ve switched my views a number of times as more information has come out. So I’m not stuck in any view. I’m no fan of the Trump administration either. I’m also Canadian, so I don’t have any Republican versus Democrat bias. However I have obviously taken a much closer look at both sides of this issue than anyone else here so far. You seem to be a good person who also doesn’t want more people suffer than are necessary. The dialectic method would say that we both cannot be correct.
At present, all I can tell you is that the arguments presented so far against my view do not outweigh the ones for it. If they did. I would then be happy to switch views. Again, it is unfortunate that I can’t provide all my links here, but I would urge you to at least take the time to balance you present view by looking into this closer yourself. Lookup the stats on poverty and mortality, then education and poverty, then the impact of the economic shutdown on poverty and education, and how long it will take to recover. Then multiply it out and compare it to those deaths that would happen from COVID-19, and then look at the demographics of the victims by age.
That’s just a start. I’ve done that. Has anyone else here?September 22, 2020 at 12:34 am #335119
@believer This is for you concerning masks- reliable sources concerning masks and COVID-19
Facial Masking for Covid-19 — Potential for “Variolation” as We Await a Vaccine:
Masks and Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
So wear a damn mask when you go out, because I do not want the damn virus nor do I want anyone else to get it. I do not want people coming through my line at work without a mask and breathing in my general direction. While I always wear a mask, it’s not as good as if we both wore one. My mask protects you and gives me some protection too, but your mask will protect me, as well as others and slow the spread of the virus and not overwhelm hospitals with COVID-19 cases.
So again, stop spewing bogus science and stop telling people not to wear a mask or stay home. When I’m not at work, I stay my butt home and I wish others would too. Stick with the real science, stop spewing bogus science, and we’ll be fine. Continue to spew bogus science and/or tell people not wear a mask and not stay home, I will continue to call you on it.September 22, 2020 at 12:40 am #335120
At present, all I can tell you is that the arguments presented so far against my view do not outweigh the ones for it.
No they do not. Wear a damn mask when you go out in public and stay at least 6 feet away from others. Other than that, stay home. And as for your suicide person, they probably had issues before this pandemic started. His suicide had nothing to do with lockdown. Wear a mask in public, stay 6 feet away, otherwise, if you don’t have to go out, stay home. That’s the only way to keep others from suffering and obviously most of Canada is doing what the real scientists are saying- wear a mask, stay 6 feet away from others, and if you don’t have to stay home or Canada would also be a close tie with the U.S. at #1 in a bad way. Canada is social distancing, wearing masks, and staying home. So stop with the bogus crap and lies.September 22, 2020 at 2:06 am #335125
@mriana As I said before mere denials and orders to obey are not valid counterpoint. If there is no virus, a mask is more hazardous to your health and the environment, and reduces the quality of life for many people. The reason we don’t have Province wide mask bylaws here is because our Chief health officer has data showing many areas are entirely absent of infection, so putting on one there to stop any spread of infection is scientifically purely pointless.
Also, given the evidence for symptoms and recovery, the only people who have a legitimate reason to wear masks are high risk individuals, those caring for them, and anyone who simply wants to because they feel like it. For the rest, the risk of any health problems is less than many other risks that people take on a daily basis where personal protection isn’t mandatory. This is especially true for sports injuries, which prior to the social lockdowns were responsible for a major portion of the healthcare load. Then there’s driving, food poisoning, and a huge list of other risks that people can and do die from, but that didn’t cause massive lockdowns and restrictions.September 22, 2020 at 8:50 am #335140@timbParticipant
You are the perfect example for someone who has fallen for the scare tactic that because so many people can have COVID-19 and not know it, it is therefore even more scary. A non-germaphobe would argue that if the disease is so mild that the vast majority of people either don’t know they have or get mild symptoms for 14 days, that it really isn’t that bad.
Yesterday, the tRump issued the same talking point BS that you are fronting for. He said that he has done a phenomenally successful job with COVID. He gave himself an A+. He said that virtually NOBODY has problems with COVID.
I am the furthest thing from a germaphobe.
The disease is for sure mild for most people. But for some, it means death. For others it means new chronic health problems. And again, get this thru your non-processing head: A SMALL % OF A VERY HIGH NUMBER, IS STILL A HIGH NUMBER. (I shouted that because I have said it twice before, and you continue to ignore this basic fact.)
It is a pandemic because it is SO DAMN CONTAGIOUS. And some who get it DIE. Some who get it have long term debilitation. 200,000 Americans DEAD! That is a big number. That IS NOT “virtually NOBODY”.
And stop spreading the tRump LIES that the elderly who have died would have died from other causes, anyway. THAT IS A LIE. No? Show your sources!!! Post just 1 link that supports your BS. It should post immediately. Then you can post 1 more link in your next post, and so on.
You ignored my evidence that your pronouncement that MORE people die because of the distancing requirements of some governments is completely bogus. You again say:
Yes there are more serious cases, but none of that data negates the consequences of the more serious and far reaching problems created by the lockdowns and other measures.
If those more serious consequences were REAL instead of your own unsubstantiated BS (site a source) then why are there not over 200,000 DEATHS from lockdowns and other measures.
And here is another problem with your poorly considered analysis:
The economy will get better when the virus is controlled. 40,000 new cases per day is not controlling the virus. People automatically shut themselves down from pre-pandemic direct social interaction, and rightfully so, if they realize that they could be exposing vulnerable loved ones to suffering and death.
You are not the 1st to portray the false choice that ending the controls on the virus will result in the economy bouncing back. If you had been paying attention since this thread started, you could have tracked, like I have, the fact that prematurely promoting an end to social distancing, PROLONGS the problems with the economy.
We were on our way (very slowly but steadily) to dropping the new cases # to lower and lower levels, BUT then voices like YOURS gained ascendancy. The rates went back up to higher #’s of new cases than ever. We shut back down some, and got more people to wear masks. The rates went down again. But NOW, FOOLS are promoting your’s and the tRump’s crap and the rates of new cases is no longer going down. We are stuck at an average of 800 premature DEATHS caused by COVID, EVERY FRIKKIN DAY.
Those 800 DEATHS a day that you and the tRump claim are virtually “NOBODY”, are going to continue throughout this month. I expect the daily number to increase in October, because more people who are in pandemic fatigue WANT to believe what you believe, believer.
But believing such LIEs will bring on MORE unnecessary DEATHS.
So while you continue to spread deadly LIES, show your frikkin sources OR stop spreading LIES. I suspect now that you are also LYING about all of your supposed great sources and studies and stats.
If you are not lying about that, then post one.
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