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Debunking Astrology


Forums Forums Pseudoscience and the Paranormal Debunking Astrology

This topic contains 24 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Philosophicus 1 week ago.

Viewing 10 posts - 16 through 25 (of 25 total)
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  • #301654

    TimB
    Participant

    The whole hullabaloo re: climate change depends heavily on predictions by climate scientists of the effect of increasing green house gases on global warming.  So I repeat that we have become more adept at predicting certain things. And it seems to me that it is not outlandish to predict that our abilities to predict other things in the future will continue to develop.

    #301690

    Patrick D
    Participant

    @timb

    Well, yes—- and?

    Sorry Tim, I take that as a given, as applied science, which of course seems like magic to ignorant people, such as —–take a wild guess.

    Science has shown  us what  WILL happen with climate change, and why.  More correctly, what is already happening, and why.  As I said, just applied science.

     

    #302107

    Miko
    Participant

    I’m an astrologer (vedic) and I wouldn’t be if it hadn’t been proven to me it’s level of accuracy.  However, $20,000 is an insane amount of money to ask for, don’t give it to him, any ol astrologer could make the same predictions, there is nothing special here!

    #302108

    Patrick D
    Participant

    “I’m an astrologer (vedic) and I wouldn’t be if it hadn’t been proven to me it’s level of accuracy.  However, $20,000 is an insane amount of money to ask for, don’t give it to him, any ol astrologer could make the same predictions, there is nothing special here!”

    I was a practicing astrologer for some years in the 1970’s. I was taught the Placidian system and was familiar with Ebertin’s ‘s mid point system, which many newer generation astrologers  swear by.

    Over the time I  consulted, all readings were blind. I kept copies of every chart I cast. I also gave my interpretations in writing and kept a copy. I followed up after 12 months.  Hits: ONE; I said the person would make a good teacher; she was a teacher.

    My lack of success meant I immediately stopped casting natal charts and began looking for proof.** I found none, in over over five years of searching.  Nor have I seen or read of  ONE precise, accurate prediction. I  have reluctantly  concluded that at best, Astrology is pseudo scientific nonsense. I say “at best” because most of the Astrologers I knew (and I knew many) were completely sincere. There are also a LOT of charlatans. EG the so called astrologers in newspapers and magazines.

    You say you have proof of your accuracy. I have no reason to doubt that you believe that.  Because this is an internet forum, and because ethical astrologers protect client confidence, all I have is your word.   Without seeing proof of your accuracy, I am unable to accept your claim. To be credible, predictions need to be declared before the event, not published after the event.

    (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

    ** I belonged to an association of astrologers. We discussed charts and readings, and verified  charts was accurate and interpretations were supported by the chart.Doing charts of famous people blind was fascinating; they were invariably wildly wrong until it was known they were  famous. (that fact NEVER showed in blind reading)

     

    PS OF COURSE the guy with $2ok is a very obvious, and crude con man!

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  Patrick D.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  Patrick D.
    #302112

    TimB
    Participant

    I tried my hand at Tarot readings for awhile. Never for money.  I was never able to come up with readings that were clearly and explicitly accurate, tho sometimes they seemed vaguely accurate.    I eventually lost interest.

    #302114

    Patrick D
    Participant

    “I tried my hand at Tarot readings for awhile. Never for money.  I was never able to come up with readings that were clearly and explicitly accurate, tho sometimes they seemed vaguely accurate.    I eventually lost interest. ”

    Me too. Also numerology and palmistry. Also read up on spiritual healing, an area with some real rock spiders preying on the desperate..

    With fortune telling generally, I soon learned that the last thing people want is to be told their future.  What they want to know is about all the great things which are going to happen to them.  ‘True believer’ fortune tellers of all kinds know this, and have a code of ethics about what they will tell people. In my experience, committed fortune tellers of all kinds  tend to be harmless little old ladies of both sexes who belong to the Theosophical society. These old dears don’t usually charge, or only charge a token amount.

    After reading about any one or all fortune telling methods one soon discovers a complete  absence of the specific. The language used is similar to that of the alleged medium and his cold readings.

    Around 35 years ago, I read what claimed to be a serious study of astrology. The book was called “Astrologers  And Their Creed” (Christopher McIntosh 1969)

    An interesting book, while he writes about the history of astrology

    Then, he tried to prove  the accuracy of astrology. He did a a large statistical study. A population of 10,000. He looked at one thing only; occupation, comparing it with occupation as outlined in a persons sun sign taken from the time of birth. (Leo, Libra Virgo, etc etc)

    The results of years of work showed an astrological accuracy of’ slightly better than chance’ . I don’t know if he included a standard deviation, his claim sounded as if he had not. He used that conclusion to claim “there’s was something in astrology’ .A modest claim, but important if true.I think it’s called ‘the thin edge of the wedge’.

    My position was, and is; if astrology is a real predictive method, it should be correct in almost every case, not ‘sometimes’.  Even if real, it’s of limited value if not consistently, specifically, accurate .

    Perhaps Lois or Lausten  might explain to me how knowing the future would effect free will, or indeed if it does.  Free will is a hard nut for me. IF fortunetelling is true/reliable, does that not abrogate free will? If  that is not the case, why not? I’m not being at all snippy, I really want to know and understand.

     

    #302122

    TimB
    Participant

    As we have discussed in other threads, predicting the future even with scientific methods is “iffy” at best.  But, of course, any info can potentially have an impact on what one does, whether it were an accurate prediction of the future or just a fictional prediction.

    There are self-fulfilling prophecies, in which the mere belief that something is going to happen, leads to actions that make something occurring to be more likely and even inevitable.

    And our will is determined, anyway, by whatever the factors are, be they predictions included or just all of the other factors that go in to determining what we will do.

    #302169

    Patrick D
    Participant

    As we have discussed in other threads, predicting the future even with scientific methods .

    Indeed.

    Astrology is truly a pseudo-science. Developed ca 3000 bce, originally by who knows, the Babylonians are often cited.But every ancient civilisation had some system of divination using the planets. Originally, the skies were studied as a predictive method of the life of the ruler, and by extension, the state. The Science of astronomy did not get under way  until the eighteenth century  EG Queen Elizabeth 1 had her own private astrologer, the magician/alchemist/scientist John Dee. (died 1609)

    It is my understanding that astrology is still taught as a recognised degree in India.

    In charting a natal horoscope,  chart, the astrologer refers to an ephemeride, a booklet which looks a bit like logarithms . It is actually a series of charts, giving the actual positions of the planets, and fixed stars, every day, for a year. The earth and moon are also counted as planets .Their positions are calculated separately,  I think, it’s been  a long time.

    All systems of astrology, as far as I’m aware , are geo-centric.

    So yeah, some skill was needed to accurately to cast a chart.  I say ‘was’.Today there are sophisticated  applications which will cast a chart and print out a detailed interpretation in less than a minute. On the face of it, this provides astrology with a veneer of scientific veracity. This does not survive scrutiny.

    #302245

    LoisL
    Participant

    Miko: I’m an astrologer (vedic) and I wouldn’t be if it hadn’t been proven to me it’s level of accuracy.

    Can you give some examples?

    Who or what do you suppose is behind these predictions? If the stars are telling you things, who or what is manipulating the stars to be able to do this? Where does the information you claim is accurate come from?

    Miko: However, $20,000 is an insane amount of money to ask for, don’t give it to him, any ol astrologer could make the same predictions, there is nothing special here!

    You’re right about that. He’s being scammed.

     

     

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  LoisL.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  LoisL.
    #302262

    Philosophicus
    Participant

    Patrick,

    “One of the handiest tools has been a common logical fallacy “After this, therefore because of this” (post hoc, ergo propter hoc) Using this tool, shamans and witchdoctors of all kinds have been using  coincidence as predictive. IE when X happened, Y also happened. Therefore X caused  Y .”

     

    That does seem to be a pretty common logical fallacy, and I’ve fallen for it a lot. It seems to be my brain’s natural go to at points. Sometimes I’ll think of a word, and the same word will be said on TV or by someone, and it’ll feel like some being or human somewhere is arranging events to happen in a certain way, and I get paranoid. I wouldn’t react emotionally if it didn’t happen so much. It seems like I’m just delusional or hallucinating, which is what psychiatry would probably say.

     

    Philosophicus

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