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Does Man need for religion?


Forums Forums Religion and Secularism Does Man need for religion?

This topic contains 115 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Player 2 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 116 total)
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  • #297483

    MikeYohe
    Participant

    Lois,

    If the government is democratic then the programs are democratic programs. You can define them as “Socialism”, but a duck is still a duck. The Romans baked free bread for the public because of a shortage of firewood. That did not make Rome a socialist government. If you label systems of government by programs like schooling. Then all nations are socialist.

    Capitalism is not greed. So, I think we found the base for discussion. I don’t know how you can look at socialists’ nations like Venezuela and not see greed too? From my research, what I am understanding is that religion was started not for heaven, after-life or gods. It was started to control the human nature of greed. Common factor of all major religion that we know some thing about is the control of some sort of knowledge. And one of the major common factors the control of knowledge has been used for is the control of greed.

    That was Jesus’ great concept. God is in all of us. In other words, if the knowledge is in the people, then the people can control greed by a properly functioning and structured government. Instead of religious leaders and kings who all eventually succumb to greed.

    Greek had set most of the system up. The Hellenistic Jews were controlling the people using a religious atheistic system that did not recognize a deity god except for the creation. Then the deity left and was never to return. What they got from that deity was a set of laws. And Jesus was setting up a system to keep any greed from changing those laws.

    We can follow those laws which started in pre-history and as religions evolved, governments seem to have better luck by using god’s laws. The biggest obstacles for any government was always controlling greed.

    God’s laws and Jesus’s system of government is really what our founding fathers used to create America. Today there are around seventy countries using a system based upon America.

    History gives us two government systems that have work well at controlling greed. The Egyptian system that took the wealth from the greedy temples and gave it to the members of the temple. This was based upon the people’s happiness and love as a scale to measure greed. The other system is reincarnation. You worked your way up the caste system and levels of heaven in your next life if you were good. Or down the caste system if you were bad or greedy.

    These systems seem to have been well understood by people right up till the eighteen hundred. Religion was on a down cycle until the mid-eighteen hundreds and when religion picked up again it rewrote peoples understanding of history and left out many basic concepts.

    The common factor of these three systems is that they are based upon the “word”. Which is knowledge. God’s laws can also be called the laws of knowledge. The idea is we pass our knowledge to the next generation and hopefully they will have a better life and keep passing the knowledge to the next generation.

    What we want is the system of knowledge that controls greed. Is that a capitalist or Socialist system? The two systems that have worked the best for mankind have been systems that could keep greed under control. And they were capitalist systems. Don’t believe everything you read in the bible. Jesus was rich. Jefferson, Adam and Franklin were rich.

    I have not reached the point or had the need to research the socialist system. Right now, my understanding is that the system always has ended up under the control of greedy leaders. Just like the kings and religious ruling systems. Socialism is a new concept. The oldest socialist county is only about my age. And it is China. China management is socialism, but its economy has changed to the capitalist system. More time is needed to prove a socialist system works and will continual working for centuries.

    I have seen small towns ruined by minimum wage. I have seen men give up trying to raise a family and not being able to keep up with the standard income of people on welfare. In socialist countries that seem to be working, birth rates are extremely low. Does that mean that the government is not a place people want to raise a family?

    As far as your statement that capitalist greed needs a strong check on it. I agree. And draining the swamp is the first step. The next step would be to make people responsible. To many companies are nothing more than a sheet of paper. We need to make the management and stockholders countable for the actions of the corporations.

    Sorry if I type a few mistakes. I caught the bug and feel like I’ve been hit by a fast train.

    #297484

    MikeYohe
    Participant

    Lausten,

    “Socialism has never worked and never will do to the greed factor.”

    That statement was meant as the Socialism system of government. I am sure you have heard that socialism is just a step to communism. Once the greedy leaders get control, they must move to communism to keep control. It will be interesting to see how socialism is going to work in the EU.

    Five atheism religions. Hindu, Gautama Buddhist, Jain, Confucian, Taoist.

    I don’t have the data available right now for the five atheist religions that used Jesus. I did the research a few years back. I will get that for you. I remember a Buddha religion was one and a couple more religions in the East. Knowledge and The Learned were two more. The Hellenistic Jews were a follower, but I did not count. Several Gnostic sects like the Manichaeism. Scientology if I remember correctly was one.

    Traditional Christianity, Arianism, Baha’i Faith, Buddhism, Christian Science, Christadelphians, Gnosticism, Hinduism, Islam, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism (LDS), Theosophy, Unitarian Universalism are some of the religions that use Jesus.

    #297485

    MikeYohe
    Participant

    CC

    It got me to thinking the Islamic God seems like a spitting image of Trump – demanding total adulation, even if he can’t get through the day without lying, while physical facts mean nothing, or that he’s a vehicle of hatred and misunderstanding between people, the ME FIRST mental, full blown.  Oblivious to all outside his immediate desires and grasp.

    I beg your pardon Mike, I “worked it around to Trump.”

    Yes, I would say so. I really don’t think you know or care that much about the personal aspects of the Islamic God. Which by the way is the same god of the Christians and Jewish religion. And I have never heard you talk that way before about god.

    #297487

    what is socialism anyways?

    ——————————————

    “That was Jesus’ great concept. God is in all of us.”  Which is exactly why Jesus isn’t the one and only way to God – God is there already.

    FYI regarding our founding fathers:

    Nature’s God and the Founding Fathers

    Jefferson and Madison led a revolutionary fight for complete separation of church and state. Their reasons probed the basic relation between religion and democracy
    E. M. Halliday

    “No doubt (preacher) Dr. Abercrombie hoped to achieve the pious triumph of persuading the President to take holy communion at his altar. But, although his message had not passed the presidential ears unheeded, the outcome was disconcerting. Washington never again left the church just before the Lord’s Supper— from that time forward he did not come at all on communion Sundays.”    https://www.americanheritage.com/natures-god-and-founding-fathers

    There’s also a collection of relevant quotes that a gent put together – unfortunately the reading is difficult because the weird wallpaper the blog uses.  Still it’s the quotes that are enlightening. 

    http://barefootsworld.org/founding.html

    To counter such claims of the “Inerrantists”, and in support of the First Article of Amendments to the Constitution for the United States, and the inherent right of all mankind to the freedom of their spiritual convictions, the following quotes of the men most responsible for the founding and establishment of our Nation, the United States of America, are presented for your study and enlightenment. They are not presented as a threat to any persons’ particular spiritual beliefs, but in support and protection of them. It is hoped, however, that each individual will seek within for an honest appraisal of their own motives for so believing, and honestly evaluate their practice of the Truth of their particular religion, their relationship to their Higher Power, with themselves and with their fellowman everywhere in the world.

    Benjamin Franklin
    Thomas Paine
    John Adams
    Thomas Jefferson
    James Madison
    Geo. Washington

    _______________________________________

    ” And I have never heard you talk that way before about god.”

    Perhaps you should take a moment to read this:   “Considering the Missing Key to Stephen Gould’s “Nonoverlapping Magisteria””

    https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-missing-key-gould.html

    here’s the last few paragraphs

    The missing key is appreciating the fundamental “Magisteria of Physical Reality,” and recognizing both science and religion are products of the “Magisteria of Our Mindscape.”

    Science seeks to objectively learn about our physical world, but we should still recognize all our understanding is embedded within and constrained by our mindscape.

    Religion is all about the human mindscape itself, with its wonderful struggles, fears, spiritual undercurrents, needs and stories we create to give our live’s meaning and make it worth living, or at least bearable.

    What’s the point? 
    Religions, God, heaven, hell, political beliefs, even science, they are all products of the human mindscape, generations of imaginings built upon previous generations of imaginings, all the way down.

    Here we are, 2018, sober assessment of physical facts is out of fashion and fantasy thinking in the service of ruthless avarice is in.

    Now it literally threatening to topple USA’s government Of The People, By The People, and For The People, in favor of a Me First, profits are more important than people, oligarch run machine.

    Well, unless an awful lot of sideliners start getting engaged in our democratic process.

    All the while the actual physical creation outside of our conceited little minds keeps on unfolding, following well understood geophysical rules regardless.

    Ignore at our own peril.

    That’s my two cents worth.  :- )

    #297488

    AS for islam I do fine with it until I think of their proud tradition of Honor Killing their daughters and sisters and then I guess there’s also the images of hundreds of men endlessly prostrating themselves and mumbling sweet meaningless lies of repetition to some absolutist notion that has nothing to do with Nature’s God.  Gotta admit that gets to my belly.

    #297495

    MikeYohe
    Participant

    CC,

    My views.

    Yes, very good post. I really like your research abilities with the computer. What is Nature’s God? It is the laws of God. Nature’s God was what Jesus’ religion was all about. The Jefferson bible has the deity god cut out, removed by Jefferson. The easiest way to understand Jesus’ religion is the word “god” meant “knowledge”, not deity. Jesus and Mary taught the religion of Knowledge. They basically taught the known wisdom. A lot of teachings came from the Greeks and Buddhas. This wisdom was how to live and think using the laws of the Nature’s God. Or simply put, to be a good person and get along with your neighbors.

    It seems to me that the two most successful religions ever in the history of mankind were capitalists’ in structure and operation. Both successful religions, the RA and the reincarnation religions taught that greed was bad and evil. RA controlled the knowledge and is no longer around. The reincarnation is still around and shares its knowledge. But both religions had the problem that greed could control the government. And that’s what Jesus’ system all about, using the religious governing system setup by the Greeks with one more control added. Jesus was a politician as well as a priest. And he was basically trying to set up the system he was going to use to govern. If it wasn’t for ruling change in Rome, Jesus would have governed the people of Israel.

    Jefferson and the founding fathers were looking at the do the same sort of thing. And like Jesus, wanted the best system for governing the people. They both backed religion. And they both wanted a religion with no deity. Paul never understood Jesus’ goals. Took Jesus’ teachings and used them, they became so popular in the northern territories that they were only second in size to the religion of The Learned. Problem was that Paul believed in deities and the old Jewish religions and never understood the Greek religions or thinking. The Learned religion is were Mary move their religion of Knowledge to. This Jesus stuff we are talking about was all destroyed by the Church and erased from history three-hundred years later. And it is just now being pieced back together. So, there is very little data on the subject.

    Point being, the successful socialist countries are still using the backbone of the America system. And are basically around because of people’s dislike for greed. But greed goes wherever people go. And I think this socialist movement in America is fueling the Christian Movement. The Christians see the socialists as greedy. Wanting to steal from the labor of the poor. Which it true. That is how a caste system works. And no doubt, socialism is a caste system. The capitalist system in America right now is suffering from giving in to a growing caste system. And that is the driving force of the political battles going on today and the reason Trump is in office.

    #297496

    MikeYohe
    Participant

    CC,

    I may have missed one thought I was going to put down. In America today, people don’t separate God from religion. They are one and the same. That was not the case with the founding fathers. They wanted to separate God the deity from having any power in the new government. But as you can see by the Jefferson bible, they still want to use religion.

    #297497

    MikeYohe
    Participant

    AS for islam I do fine with it until I think of their proud tradition of Honor Killing their daughters and sisters and then I guess there’s also the images of hundreds of men endlessly prostrating themselves and mumbling sweet meaningless lies of repetition to some absolutist notion that has nothing to do with Nature’s God.  Gotta admit that gets to my belly.

    Me too!

    #297500

    You spend more time within the religion thing than I do.  So, we’ll leave it at that.

    That still leaves me with:  “this socialist movement in America” is like so much else from the Right wing/libertarian crowd.

    Smoke and mirrors intended to scare people, rather than any effort to understand or clarify.  We are a “society”, without cooperation we can’t exist.

     

    Also,  when asked for a simple description of what you perceive “socialism” to be, we can expect gushers of  words, but no simple straight constructive response.

     

    #297505

    LoisL
    Participant

    Jesus was a socialist and a rebel against the people in charge. He instructed his followers to feed the poor and take care of them. But today’s Christians disregard those teachings and try to make Jesus into a conservative, reactionary, bully, not unlike themselves.

    Here are some quotes proving it. Maybe you can find some quotes proving that Jesus was instead a selfish, conservative, bully who couldn’t enjoy a good meal unless he knew someone was starving, just like today’s reactionaries, otherwise known as Republicans.

    (Incidentally, I have more quotes if you’d like to see them.)

    Matthew 6:2-4 ESV /
    “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

    Acts 2:44-45 ESV /

    And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need.

    2 Corinthians 8:13-15 ESV /
    For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness. As it is written, “Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack.”

    Galatians 6:2 ESV /
    Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

    Ephesians 4:28 ESV /
    Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.

    Matthew 19:21 ESV /
    Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

    Luke 3:11 ESV /
    And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”

    Acts 4:32-35 ESV /

    Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.

    Acts 5:1-42 ESV /
    But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back for himself some of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. …

    1 John 3:17 ESV /
    But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?

    Deuteronomy 14:28-29 ESV /
    “At the end of every three years you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in the same year and lay it up within your towns. And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance with you, and the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your towns, shall come and eat and be filled, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands that you do.

    1 Corinthians 10:24 ESV /
    Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.

    Zechariah 11:12 ESV /
    Then I said to them, “If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.” And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver.

    Exodus 16:16-18 ESV /
    This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Gather of it, each one of you, as much as he can eat. You shall each take an omer, according to the number of the persons that each of you has in his tent.’” And the people of Israel did so. They gathered, some more, some less. But when they measured it with an omer, whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack. Each of them gathered as much as he could eat.

    Matthew 6:24 ESV /
    “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

    James 5:1-6 ESV /
    Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. …

    Proverbs 28:8 ESV /
    Whoever multiplies his wealth by interest and profit gathers it for him who is generous to the poor.

    Psalm 112:9 ESV /
    He has distributed freely; he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures forever; his horn is exalted in honor.

     

    #297511

    Lausten
    Participant

    “I have not reached the point or had the need to research the socialist system. Right now, my understanding is that the system always has ended up under the control of greedy leaders. Just like the kings and religious ruling systems. Socialism is a new concept. The oldest socialist county is only about my age. And it is China. China management is socialism, but its economy has changed to the capitalist system. More time is needed to prove a socialist system works and will continual working for centuries.” — Mike

    I only skim your posts Mike, because they are usually streams of consciousness. You start out correctly identifying the earliest known socialist programs in Rome, then make this statement. What Trump wants to do is label a political group. There are no pure democracies or pure anything political. There are socialist programs just about everywhere. Greed can crop up anywhere, corruption is rampant. Socialism doesn’t cause those.

    #297512

    Lausten
    Participant

    True Lois. And, if you look a little harder, you can see how some authors were twisting that message. Of course, we don’t really know what came before things were written down, but I think the theory that there was a peaceful and inclusive message first can be supported by the text. Later books, like Timothy, introduced things like excluding women from preaching. 1 John also has some exclusionary stuff, although it’s hard to tell if he is saying “love everyone” or “only love those who agree with our tribe”. Bolding is mine.

     

    God Is Love (this is the heading the ESV gives us)
    7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

    13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

     

    The intention is hard to tell here. The idea of loving strangers and old enemies and including people you’d never met would be a new idea in the 1st century. There are parables of making up with old enemies and putting values of caring for all above tribal allegiances. There is also quite a bit about accepting Christ first, then you can get the love and support of the community. There’s enough of it for preachers today to justify doing just that anyway.

     

    #297514

    Cool collection, thank you Lois.

    #297518

    LoisL
    Participant

    Unfortunately the right wing system has exactly the same effect. Just look at the United States right now. We have the too 1% more wealthy than the rest of the population combined. The rught wing has tradionally been against any government program that helps the unfortunate and downtrodden. They’ve been against unions that seek to give workers a fair shake. Which system is the most greedy? I say it is definitely the right wing and the further rigt wing they are, the more greedy they are. They make sure the country’s wealth goes straight into their pockets. What could be more greedy than that? It’s been said that a Republican can’t enjoy a good meal unless he knows someone is starving. IMO that perfectly sums up the right wing.

    #297519

    LoisL
    Participant

    Mike Yohe wrote:

     

    I am sure you have heard that socialism is just a step to communism.

    Just as conservatism is just a step to fascism. Any political system is just a step to something worse. The answer is to keep it on an even keel.

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