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Evolution is not a process. Evolution is Time driving Matter forward.


Forums Forums Science and Technology Evolution is not a process. Evolution is Time driving Matter forward.

Viewing 6 posts - 16 through 21 (of 21 total)
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  • #334847
    @timb
    Participant

    …we can detect the signs of life in the Venus atmosphere and water on Mars and below the surface of the Moon, etc, etc. but we can’t detect Consciousness.

    But we DO detect Consciousness. We do so subjectively, every time we are  engaged in a conscious behavior. If hooked up to the latest brain monitoring technology, there would be a coinciding detection of a pattern of brain activity.

    I believe that our consciousness behaviors, requires our having developed advanced verbal behavior.  Without that I think that we would essentially be unconscious automatons or as some say, unconscious “zombies”.

    Our advanced verbal behavior has made us humans the pinnacle of life forms on Earth. But I think that it also has the side effect of consciousness. Whereas, our development of advanced verbal behavior has made us exceptionally able to survive to reproduction so effectively, our consciousness may be unnecessary for our survival and evolution, and yet it exists as a product of our advanced verbal abilities.  Iow, our advanced verbal skills result in our ability to subjectively monitor our own thoughts.

     

     

     

     

    #334852

    Yeah, I knew I was stepping into it with that sentence after I wrote it, but left it in anyways, curious to see where it goes.

    But we DO detect Consciousness.

    1) google “how is consciousness measured” – things still not near as clear cut as measuring plasmas, or portions of electromagnetic spectrum.

    Front. Neurosci., 27 June 2018 | https://doi.org/10.3389/fnins.2018.00424
    Measuring the Complexity of Consciousness

    Xerxes D. Arsiwalla1,2,3* and Paul Verschure1,2,3,4*

    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.00424/full

    The grand quest for a scientific understanding of consciousness has given rise to many new theoretical and empirical paradigms for investigating the phenomenology of consciousness as well as clinical disorders associated to it. A major challenge in this field is to formalize computational measures that can reliably quantify global brain states from data. In particular, information-theoretic complexity measures such as integrated information have been proposed as measures of conscious awareness. This suggests a new framework to quantitatively classify states of consciousness. However, it has proven increasingly difficult to apply these complexity measures to realistic brain networks. In part, this is due to high computational costs incurred when implementing these measures on realistically large network dimensions. Nonetheless, complexity measures for quantifying states of consciousness are important for assisting clinical diagnosis and therapy. This article is meant to serve as a lookup table of measures of consciousness, with particular emphasis on clinical applicability. We consider both, principle-based complexity measures as well as empirical measures tested on patients. We address challenges facing these measures with regard to realistic brain networks, and where necessary, suggest possible resolutions.

    2)  My point isn’t to pretend that consciousness doesn’t exist, though I’ve seen where some others do just that (very weird, like arguing time doesn’t exist).  Nor do I imply it isn’t a product of the material we exist within.  I’m about stressing the qualitative difference between our Mindscape (the product of our brain) and the physical world we are embedded within.

     

    I believe that our consciousness behaviors, requires our having developed advanced verbal behavior.

    Better stick to a ‘spectrum’ of consciousness behaviors being dependent on the spectrum of hardware/software an organism possesses, since consciousness of it’s surrounding seems to be a key component of life, even at the most primitive levels.

    Though I would agree that no other living organism has achieved the complexity of our human consciousness.

    #334853

    @  3point14rat   CC, could it be your writing style that causes people to think you’re more mystical than you are? I think I know what you’re saying but also see how it could be hard to find the concrete meaning in your posts above.

    Funny that.  It occurred to me, that one of the driving forces behind me writing my original “Missing Key to Gould’s Nonoverlapping Magisteria” was a feeling that rationalists, liberals, believers in the scientific process and learning from Earth’s evolution (such as myself) have allowed the weirder side of physics to throw most of us into some sort of existential free fall – whereas people of faith, have their simple acceptance of Faith which allows them to ignore all the existential questions and mysteries and even to deny simple explainable and demonstrable geophysical facts whenever convenient for them.

    I find that very concerning because it seems that so often rationalist are totally incapable of responding to the Faith argument – because they are so confused about reality to begin with, which in turn has lead to an idiot imbecile off-the-rails monster like t rump being made president of this nation and ripping us apart as we stand by and wish for better days..

    For decades now, it’s like anytime someone pulls out their “I got my Faith” card – we’ve tended to shut up and slink away.  That is wrong.  It’s about time rationalist’s develop a bit of solid faith in something themselves, so they have a little solid ground under them and are in a position to challenge the faith blinded in a constructive manner.

    Earth Centrism with it’s appreciate for Deep Time, Evolution and actually mentally (dare I say spiritually) absorbing the simple fact that WE ARE a product of this planet, we have been endowed with an amazing mind that can do incredible things, but we are still creatures of this Earth and we dissolve back into Earth when our time is up..

    The point?   Not getting too punch drunk* and confuse our wonderful mental capacity with this Physical Reality which was here long before we were and will be here long after we wipe ourselves off this Earth, as Earth simply keeps on keeping on and dealing with what get’s thrown at her.  Lordie knows this isn’t the first extinction event Earth has endured.

     

    {First draft hopefully later versions will do a better job – but now it’s off to stacking my share of the wood.}

    *like my pal Donald Hoffman with his contrived fitness points; and icons rather than substance; and most bizarre discrete “conscious agents” — as opposed to consciousness being a product of our complex environment, sensing, and processing abilities. …

    #334854
    @3point14rat
    Participant

    CC:  “…rationalists, liberals, believers in the scientific process and learning from Earth’s evolution (such as myself) have allowed the weirder side of physics to throw most of us into some sort of existential free fall…”

    Point made.

    But I kinda disagree.

    The hoi polloi aren’t as scientifically literate or purely rational as they should be, but don’t lay that at the feet of those who are. We are in the minority and are fighting a steeply uphill battle. If it seems that liberals roll over under any pressure from the other side, you need to remember that it’s almost a truism that the inhabitants of opposite ends of the political spectrum also generally inhabit opposite ends of the personality spectrum. Those who are progressive tend to not be aggressive in voicing their opinion and want to talk about things while conservatives often scream their opinion and scream you down if you disagree. For example, Here in Canada I see dozens of stickers on trucks (always trucks) that absolutely slam the Liberals and NDP (profanity isn’t common but it’s not rare either), yet I never ever see stickers slamming the Conservatives.

    Maybe I’m not very observant, but I don’t see any rationalists, etc. in an existential free fall. There are disagreements about how to deal with irrational thinking, but “existential free fall” is a pretty severe exaggeration in my opinion.

    So you are right to be frustrated at the lack of resistance to dogmatic, faith-based, selfish, insular, stupid ideas, but fighting them is an overwhelming job and many aren’t mentally or emotionally equipped to deal with it. I know my frustration level spikes the instant I hear dogmatic, faith-based, selfish, insular, stupid ideas, but since rational arguments are worthless to irrational people, my options are to either let it pass or lose friends while changing nothing.

    Forget trying to fix Sree and Oneguy and similar trolls. Work on making sure the next generation has the mental tools to not make their mistakes. You’re burning a ton of energy and making your life worse by saying smart things to people who don’t want to understand. If TimB or any of the other smart people here don’t seem to get you, remember that these are minor details in the larger picture.

    It may not seem like I’m actively on your side, but I am, just not on here where I’m either preaching to the choir or to a brick wall.

    #334872
    @timb
    Participant

    I’m on your side too, CC.  I just will rigorously defend the stance that our reality is based on natural laws, against implications to the contrary.

    I recognize that you accept that too, but you sometimes seem to skirt the line, in your implications.  And I accept your reason for your project of establishing a language that might be more effective in countering the LIE-Believers in our world.

    I suppose that you and I are some of the few progressive thinkers who don’t mind being aggressive with presenting our perspectives.

    #334898

    Tru dat.

    I do appreciate both of you are “on my side” – I also appreciate that both of you are very intelligent and thoughtful, and that serious challenges are the only ones worth spending time on.

    Which is why I take your critique seriously and give it a lots of thought, and push back – and we’re probably not through with this discussion.

    😉   I hope.

     

    It’s very much appreciated, since I much prefer serious critique to coddling or patronizing, which is for dogs and kids, not serious humans in an unforgiving world..

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