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How much of our lives is conditioned?


Forums Forums General Discussion How much of our lives is conditioned?

This topic contains 38 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  lost-soul 1 month, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 9 posts - 31 through 39 (of 39 total)
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  • #302289

    3point14rat
    Participant

    Lois: ” People can only “work at changing” if their determining factors lead them do it. But consciously working at changing doesn’t always result in change because determining factors must be affected in the right way for the person to actually change. The point is that your consciousness is unconnected to your determining factors. This is why most people who consciously try very hard to change don’t change, or don’t change very much. Your determining factors are  “unaware” of your efforts. You will only change when your efforts to change actually result in a change in your determining factors. We can’t know whether they can or can’t. If you think you’ve “succeeded” in your efforts to change it’s because your determining factors were in a state to lead  you to try to change, and then they were affected in the right way by what you did to try to change. Our conscious efforts are not in control, even though we want them to be in control and when we believe they are in control.”

    Maybe. I can’t guarantee that my interpretation of that is exactly what you were trying to say. Does “determining factors” = “genetic predisposition”?

    One of the determining factors that affects how we judge ourselves is intertwined with the determining factor of how hard we work at making any changes. So those who are constantly striving to improve themselves tend to also have a personality that willingly sacrifices to make those improvements.

    Inherent in our consciousness is our personality, which is a determining factor. So there is a connection between consciousness and determining factors.

    I guess I might be looking at ways of changing that are most obvious to me, and this influences my thoughts about the topic. The examples I think of are weight, fitness, diet, education, personal hygiene, and other aspects of our physical selves. An individual’s ability to influence any of those aspects is directly related to both that individual’s physical limitations, and, more importantly, their mental ability to change- both of which are genetically determined (what I’m assuming you mean when you talk about “determining factors”. Please correct me if I’m wrong.)

    Your closing sentence is tough. If you mean that our conscious efforts are hardwired by our genetics (our personality is not in our control), then I agree. If you mean that our conscious efforts are thwarted by our genetic limitations, then I agree only that we can’t exceed our limitations but disagree in that we do have control within those limits.

    #302293

    Xain
    Participant

    You’re not being Frank. You’re being Xian. Frank saw meaning right in front of him and was not disturbed by some star dying light years away. You don’t want to experience your own experience.

    Frank made meaning, you can’t see what doesn’t actually exist. I do experience my own experience, but sadly it’s too much in accordance with the way things are. I can’t lie to myself anymore and say things have meaning or that they matter.

    No surprise that you disagree, you are pretty much programmed to do that. And no surprise that I can’t figure what you really think. You keep mentioning some kind of reality that I guess has meaning, but you don’t know where this reality is, so anybody who has anything to say about, is wrong, according to you. I’ve never argued with you about the inherent meaning in life or the ultimate purpose or our significance in comparison to the the vast universe.

    As far as I can tell, Neil coined the “cosmic perspective”, so I’m gonna think he knows what he means. There’s a full article about it on the Hayden website. It’s not what you said. Urban Dictionary gives us this.  It’s not that “nothing matters”, rather we are “seemingly insignificant”, comparatively so, to the vast cosmos.

    The cosmic perspective is that nothing matters. Neil just doesn’t seem to want to take that final step towards that direction. Many people don’t. I’m not saying this “other reality” I hear of has any meaning, just that it’s the truth and not this constructed world that we live in. The challenge of the modern age is to reckon with the truth of reality which is nihilism. Religion doesn’t work anymore, and attempts at “making meaning” are more like a way of avoiding the truth.

    #302294

    Lausten
    Participant

    Nihilism takes many forms, so it doesn’t work as a definition of the “truth of reality”. You use the scope of the universe as your evidence that our lives don’t have meaning, so you acknowledge the existence of that universe, but then you say there is some other truth, and you get pretty slippery after that, not really saying anything of any substance. The most consistent theme you have is Existential Nihilism. There is plenty to say on that, much of it has been said by well-known thinkers. But you don’t care much about what others think. You just want to tell them that they are wrong and they are avoiding some truth that you can’t describe.

    #302299

    TimB
    Participant

    Humans have the ability to choose a meaning for their lives.  Humans are derived from the Universe.

    #302304

    3point14rat
    Participant

    I would never try telling someone experiencing fear, anger, love or frustration, that their feelings are not real. Emotions are experienced and are therefore part of reality. Even emotions that are felt due to an idea that is fictional are real emotions.

    I’m truly sorry that some people are incapable of emotion, but that doesn’t somehow mean that those of us who can experience them are delusional.

    Xian, are you capable of feeling emotions? You don’t need to elaborate, just a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ is good enough.

    #302421

    Xain
    Participant

    I would never try telling someone experiencing fear, anger, love or frustration, that their feelings are not real. Emotions are experienced and are therefore part of reality. Even emotions that are felt due to an idea that is fictional are real emotions.

    I’m truly sorry that some people are incapable of emotion, but that doesn’t somehow mean that those of us who can experience them are delusional.

    Xian, are you capable of feeling emotions? You don’t need to elaborate, just a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ is good enough.

    It’s not a matter of feeling emotion. But things like  meaning, connection (not physically), beauty, don’t exist “out there”. There is nothing you tap into when you look at art or listen to music, the feelings are fabrications.

    #302424

    3point14rat
    Participant

    I’m sorry I wasted my time asking you a question. I should have learned that it’s a waste of time from all the other times you ignored them.

    You make it impossible to care or have sympathy for you, when you never engage in conversation. You bitch and moan and ask questions, but never ever care what anyone else says.

    #302426

    Lausten
    Participant

    How does that feel Xian? Does it alter anything in you when someone says it’s impossible to sympathize with you? Are you trying to switch off your emotions because you can’t make sense of what an emotion is? You can do hide your emotions when typing to someone you can’t see, but it’s not really possible.

    Your argument that feelings are fabrications reminded me of the Blind Watchmaker. The story is, if you see a watch on the beach, you know it is designed, so you know there is a designer, then the analogy is, if you see something complex like a human, it must be designed, so there must a designer, but we don’t see humans were designed like we see watch factories, so there must be a God, the designer of us.

    The problem with this is, it ignores that the grains of sand in the beach are also complex if you look closely, so there are “watches” everywhere. We recognize the watch as designed because we differentiate it from nature. If you are talking about all of creation, you can’t do that and have the analogy hold up. The analogy becomes all “watches”.

    So, to your “feelings are fabricated”; fabricated from what? From the chemical reactions in your brain? And what was your brain fabricated from? From the elements that came together and somehow life arose and evolution happened. Questions like this have answers, we don’t need to invent some other “truth” that is accessed by some mysterious process. Even when we don’t have the answer, there is no reason to jump to a different mechanism for finding truth.

    #304116

    lost-soul
    Participant

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>Just jumping in:</p>
    <p style=”text-align: left;”>There is no such thing as freedom of choice. Think of our universe  a series of erected dominos. if you knock one off, the rest will follow. Now, it makes no sense to argue that  the domino in the middle could have behaved differently. In other words, how can a causal universe allow for freewill. And by the way don’t blame those who condition you; in the end, they themselves have no choice.</p>

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