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If you believe all negative news about Trump is "fake…"


Forums Forums Politics and Social Issues If you believe all negative news about Trump is "fake…"

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 266 total)
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  • #304869
    @3point14rat
    Participant

    “Qanon (Pizzagate, etc), it has LOT in common with the Satanic Panic of the 1980s  & 1990s.”

    That’s why what someone believes is less important than why they believe it. Pizzagate, Mormonism, sasquatch, ghosts, flat-earth, healing crystals, and all the other examples of irrational ideas have nothing in common other than the mental errors that lead to them.

    Understanding the root of the problem is the only way to solve it.

    If someone comes on here to point out their justification for dismissing all negative news about Trump, we are likely to see the same mistakes made by believers in all the examples I listed above. If, however, they show that there are excellent reasons for dismissing the reports, I’ll be truly amazed and embarrassed and grateful.

    #304870
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    I understand the actual question Tee. It’s either rhetorical to someone like me, or something you’ll never get a straight answer to from someone who believes the conspiracy. I’ve walked people all the way through how to determine what’s true and had agreement on the complete scientific method, then tried to apply it to whatever they were trying to sell me, and it’s like a switch flips, they go back to believing for no reason. They say things like “too many questions”, or bring up some other conspiracy that turned out to be true, thus proving all conspiracies are true. It’s just a cascade of logic fallacies.

    #304871
    @player
    Blocked

    To be “fake news,” someone would have to be writing and directing it all.”

    i haved claimed previously  that the output of this  writer is the spreading of superficial analysis of the real world. This is an example.

    Its a conversation to distract from serious critical analysis of how our news is reported and why news is presented essentially the same on all corporate media stations.

     

    It is fake news because its not genuine, objective or honest when half truths are presented or outright false claims are pushed forward (see claim about trump being a russian agent).

    All the criticism of trump from the likes of cnn, msnbc, etc is from the right not left in the economic and foriegn policy space. Examples  (something that you guys never provide) are the reporting on the attempted coup in Venezuela, the pull out of troops in syria, the cease  of  war “games” off the n korean coast, the reporting of the US economy as a recovering and healthy one while  silent on the  unprecedented rate of deregulation of the economy and the environmental distruction underway etc. Look at NYT healine on recent shootings when it claimed Trump wants to bring people together. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Any slight difference these corporate giants might have with Fox news on trump will all be forgiven when we have trump vs bernie. Thats my point.

     

    And if you think that it takes a conspiracy to presest news with a certain agenda with the jounos taking instructions from thier masters  you obviously have no idea or appreciation of the propaganda model in operation.

     

    Here is an excellent 3 minute clip of andrew marr from the bbc and chomsky when marr proclaims he is never censored and is free to write what he wants.

     

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by Player.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by Player.
    #304873
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    Wow, Player can use paragraphs and links.

    This is Chomsky at his worst. He’s saying that the propaganda machine doesn’t just censor, it gets the majority of people to believe all the lies. He’s confusing propaganda with culture. What he’s saying could only be maintained if the majority of people believed it. It’s what I was saying about slavery in the South 200 years ago. We have competing ideas about economics and politics now. How do you think Ocasio-Cortez got elected?

    As for examples, they are given frequently, simply naming some headlines didn’t add anything to this conversation.

    #304876
    @3point14rat
    Participant

    It takes a sane person about three or four tweets to see that Trump is morally bankrupt, a moron, and utterly unsuited to lead anything involving humans, or any other living thing for that matter.

    If you don’t like the news reporting how horrible Trump is, maybe get mad at the bozo providing all the fodder for the stories.

     

    #304877
    @3point14rat
    Participant

    I too was surprised at the many number of words you used, Player.

    Keep it up! Seriously, it’s interesting to hear what you think.

    #304878
    @player
    Blocked

    Lausten. OmG you are so Orwellian in your responses. He didnt say news is censored. Rather when it reaches us it has been filtered. He point is dissenting ideas can be silenced with very little effort.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by Player.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by Player.
    #304881
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    Player, censorship or filtering are basically interchangeable in this context. You have done nothing to show how news is filtered. The question is how some easily verified facts are claimed to be lies by a large group of people. Tee is specifically asking about Trump voters and I expanded that to a wider variety of people with cognitive dissonance.

    Let me ask about a more specific example. I met a Republican woman who was bothered that I thought all Trump voters were racist. I said I didn’t think that exactly, but, as a comparative point of reference, I watched both Presidential conventions and saw a more diverse audience at the Democratic one. She said that’s because the media portrayed it that way. She had worked at the convention as a volunteer serving food and she said she saw lots of black people. Tell me, if she’s right, if the Republican convention had just as many minorities attending, how does the media pull off that lie?

    That’s the thinking, the mind set, that the OP is asking. If you want, take some common example where a Democrat believes something that is not true. Whatever, but be specific, not some general rant about “you have no idea about the propaganda machine”.

    #304882
    @teebryantoo
    Participant

    .

    #304884
    @teebryantoo
    Participant

    //..irrational ideas have nothing in common other than the mental errors that lead to them.//

     

    I’ve interracted with some of these people. They are deadly serious as fuck.

    Somehow they have managed to combine every conspiracy theory on the planet and make everything lead to … Donald Trump.

     

    Check out the Qanon conspiracy chart https://imgur.com/a/ZMBZtbS and the Qanon “Great Awakening” map https://imgur.com/a/eeBNRhV

    My observation is that unlike Loch Ness and Bigfoot monster fans, the QAnon and Satanic Panic proponents and Fundamentalist Christians overlap strongly and have a lot in common. Their view of mankind is exceedingly dark. They believe that nothing is as it seems, because the devil (or an evil cabal, the Illuminati) is really in charge, just below the surface.

    Just as Fundamentalists (well, all Calvinists) believe in the Total Depravity of Mankind, the Satanic Panic proponents had people believing in “recovered memories” in which their parents, relatives, music teachers, local police, pastors, etc etc had molested them in Satanic rituals…and Q claims MOST elected officials, wealthy people and Hollywood actors are pedophiles who drink children’s blood.

    The bottom line for all 3 is that most people are evil, extreme acts of perversion are typical, no one who SEEMS good really is, and you can’t trust anyone or anything except _____. EVIL…IS…EVERYWHERE.

    It has to be SO depressing to think that way.

    It would be funny, except that these crazy ideas have real-world consequences:

    Trump’s Encouraging QAnon May Result in Violence—Just ask the FBI

    Researchers at Media Matters have tracked multiple violent incidents and threats of violence linked to QAnon adherents, including:

    *A Washington man who murdered his brother with a sword;

    *An Oregon man who threatened to kill YouTube employees over what he believed were acts of censorship;

    *A man accused of murdering an alleged crime boss;

    *An armed Nevada man whoblocked the Hoover Dam with an armored vehicle;

    *An Oklahoma man who threatened to assassinate Trump

    https://www.justsecurity.org/65659/trumps-encouraging-qanon-may-result-in-violence-just-ask-the-fbi/

    >

    ‘Pizzagate’ shooter sentenced to 4 years in prison

    The North Carolina man who fired an assault rifle inside a Washington, DC, pizzeria while investigating an online conspiracy theory known as “Pizzagate” was sentenced to 48 months in prison Thursday.

    https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/22/politics/pizzagate-sentencing/index.html

     

    Of course, the Satanic Panic ruined countless lives, including all the adults & children affected by the McMartin Preschool scandal.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/this-day-in-history/the-mcmartin-preschool-trials

    #304886
    @timb
    Participant

    This is an excellent thread.  I would like to make a particular point and then shut up about it:  Intelligence does not immunize one from having very stupid beliefs.  In fact a very intelligent person can be MORE effective in constructing a rationalization of a very stupid belief. People can be intelligent but they still tend to have emotions and other personal contingencies that make the truth less palatable for their liking.  One very intelligent person can gradually, thru the processes of resolving their cognitive dissonances,  come to believe things that are 180 degrees from the truth. But I will shut up about this part of the discussion in this thread, because I think it is a red herring.

    Now, again with the self-serving Noam Chomsky.  Are his assertions based on some verifiable research or are we as usual supposed to rely on his supposed reputation of grand “expertise”?   As far as I’m concerned, claims from Chomsky, have the full force of opinions, which we know are like a-holes, in that everybody has one.

    Thirdly, one might consider baseless conspiracy theories to be a prime example of what one might call “fake news”.  They spread more rapidly and effectively than any truth based news.  And Trump has the spreading of baseless conspiracy theories as a fundamental part of his success as a political figure.  The latest fake conspiracy that he is promoting is that the Clintons were involved in Epstein’s recent death.  He ignores the fact that Epstein was in the custody of a poorly run federal prison that is overseen by Trump’s own (loyal to Trump) Department of Justice.

    So instead of Trump having any responsibility for the death of the most infamous prisoner, in the USA, dying in the custody of a poorly run federal prison, that is overseen by the DOJ, that is headed by the most obsequiously loyal to Trump Attorney General (Bill Barr), Trump proposes to the nation that the Clintons somehow got Epstein killed.  Now what could be a greater example of totally ridiculous fake news?  Yet just about everyone in the country, by now, has heard this extreme BS as being what might have happened.

    There is such a thing as fake news.  Fake news that gets reported over and over. But the most bombastic ridiculously fakest of false news is promoted by Trump and the conspiracy theorists of the right. And so far it has tended to work well for them.

     

    #304891
    @player
    Blocked

    “Player, censorship or filtering are basically interchangeable in this context. You have done nothing to show how news is filtered. The question is how some easily verified facts are claimed to be lies by a large group of people. Tee is specifically asking about Trump voters and I expanded that to a wider variety of people with cognitive dissonance.”
    >The media is owned by the rich who are beholden to their corporate advertisters. News that can have a determental effect on their profits or power strutures will removed from the public arena.  Why this is controversial to you  stumps me. Examples look at the reporting on the iraq war, on climate change, on israel palestine, on assange,  on alternative economic theories, on corporate welfare, on institutionalised corruption so on and so on.
    >Chomsky brillantly checkmated Marr when he claimed that nobody tells him what to think or write  with

    If you thought differently you would not be sitting where you are.<

    Now how do you expect to have a civil intelligent and honest conversation with a trump supporter by with an opening remark that all supports are racist and then complain that that did not go down well? Are you feeling ok?</p>
    >If you are really left, why didnt you bring up healthcare, taxation, wages and underemployment, corruption, private debt etc. Wouldnt this have been more productive in challenging their understanding of the world and exploring revealed contradictions.  >But no you cant. Just stick to go to topic and be confrontational. That got you real far.
    “The question posed by the writer is a bogus one as it presents the media as a honest one and is a distraction to real critic on what is going on. How many people were at the inauguration, trump shook putins hand, trump using twitter, trump talks worse than bush – who gives a fuck.

    In summation on how dissconnected you are to what is being put to you,  how does this
    “We have competing ideas about economics and politics now. How do you think Ocasio-Cortez got elected?”

    marry up with this

     

    “Any slight difference these corporate giants might have with Fox news on trump will all be forgiven when we have trump vs bernie. Thats my point”

    #304892
    @timb
    Participant

    Your example would better be “Trump v. Warren” rather than “trump vs Bernie”. Elizabeth may not win the nomination, but her chances, right now, are better than Bernie’s.

    I do think that much of our media is biased towards presenting info that will increase their profitability (e.g., ratings)

    So we should all be on guard in trying to get around that “filter” (as I presume Player would call it.)

    #304893
    @player
    Blocked

    “I do think that much of our media is biased towards presenting info that will increase their profitability (e.g., ratings)”

     

     

    higher taxes??

    #304894
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    Player: I’ll stop complaining you typing too little.

    “The media is owned by the rich…” Duh. There is also PBS and media that is not owned by the rich and there are books and libraries, so people can find information if they want. Media could not maintain its credibility if they were as far from the truth as you seem to be saying they are.

    “how do you expect to have a civil intelligent and honest conversation with a trump supporter…” I didn’t open with saying she was racist, she opened by accusing me of thinking that. I did bring up those other issues at other points in the afternoon we spent together. It was mostly very civil. Just answer the questions I ask, don’t make a bunch of assumptions about what I did or didn’t do.

    “Any slight difference these corporate giants might have with Fox news on trump will all be forgiven when we have trump vs bernie. Thats my point”

    I didn’t respond to this point earlier because I don’t get what the point is. Are you saying there are small differences between Fox and other news outlets and they just want to make money off the heat generated by the horse race?

     

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