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Intuitionist Model


Forums Forums Humanism Intuitionist Model

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 21 total)
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  • #309725
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    I’m reading “The Righteous Mind”, about how self-righteousness is innate and might even be helpful to holding society together. In this diagram, he shows how we start with the emotional response, then justify it with reasons. Line #6 is dotted, because it is not so common, it’s self-reflection that rewires your thinking so your emotional response changes. I’ve seen this happen in a bad way, people start believing conspiracies and populism because they can’t work out the data. The good way, and it’s what I consider good, but others may not, is leaving your tribe or your religion and having to work out a new basis of morality.

    #309776

    Now there’s a chart to mediate on.

    What is it Spock would said,

    fascinating.

    Be fun to see this batted about by some of you deeper thinkers.

    #309856
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    Holy Crap, Mike Yohe actually was on to something. There is a theory in cultural anthropology that early tribes “domesticated themselves”. You would have never found this using what Mike said, because he so misrepresented it, it became unrecognizable. The theory is, early primates and in to early hominid tribes used alpha males to keep order, might made right. But they can be really bad at ruling a group. As weapons developed, strength was no longer the only factor for leadership, denser webs of life developed, and a despotic leader could be taken out. The ability to gain a reputation became as important as being able to win a fight, bringing more genes for reasoning into the gene pool.

    This is from Part II, Chapter 8. The Conservative Advantage. There are a lot of online resources for this book, sometimes whole chapters in PDF form and a variety of extensive notes on blogs and other formats. This is an article referencing the guy, Boehm, that is referenced in this chapter.

    #309857
    @write4u
    Participant

    Lausten said,

    The theory is, early primates and in to early hominid tribes used alpha males to keep order, might made right. But they can be really bad at ruling a group. As weapons developed, strength was no longer the only factor for leadership, denser webs of life developed, and a despotic leader could be taken out. The ability to gain a reputation became as important as being able to win a fight, bringing more genes for reasoning into the gene pool.

    IMO, the only hominid tribes which attained true civilized behavior are the Bonobo. They are matriachies and females rule by forbidding violence and rewarding good behavior with sexual favors. This seems to be very effective as there are no reports of a Bonobo ever having killed another Bonobo, whereas Chimpanzees are renowned for violent behavior and even murder.

    Moreover, the close social relationships among Bonobos helps in cooperative behavior and in test it was observed that Bonobos as a group would solve various problems much faster that Chimpanzees, who usually haggled more about dominance that offering cooperation.

    This may be  an interesting peek at Bonobo behavior.

    #309858
    @timb
    Participant

    I like bonobos.

    #309951

    Okay here’s the description of that video up there:

    Part 1 of 4. Footage about Kanzi, at the GSU Language Research Center from NHK Japan Broadcast Corporation for a special they subsequently produced called Kanzi: An Ape of Genius (English version) narrated by Dr. Sue Savage-Rumbaugh. From about 1993.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Check it out, she never stopped studying them.

    TIME  –  Nov 30, 2016
    At Great Ape Trust, TIME 100 honoree Dr. Sue Savage-Rumbaugh studies the cognitive development of bonobos, perhaps humankind’s closest relatives.

    #309952

    That one’s too short.

    Things You Probably Didn’t Know About Cute Bonobos | National Geographic

     

    National Geographic  – June 16, 2014
    Bonobos are the only ape that doesn’t kill. And unlike any other ape, bonobos help each other out (a lot like humans do). Through the use of “bonobo TV,” researchers found that bonobos’ yawns are contagious (also like humans). But while they have humanlike traits, their biggest threat comes from humans.

    #309956
    @timb
    Participant

    I started yawning, just from them talking about contagious yawning.

    #309976
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    The book has a lot of data backing up what he says and he let’s you know when he’s speculating and when there is counter evidence to his ideas. So, I can’t just put up pithy quotes that summarize everything. One quote he uses (I forget the source), to make a point about the difference between us and our primate relatives is, you’ll never see two chimpanzees working together to carry a log. As much as we resemble them with our hierarchical behaviors, we get non-kin to cooperate in ways no other animals do.

    #310003
    @timb
    Participant

    Bonobos are probably better than Chimps on cooperation.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982207010172

     

    #310092
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    Yep, but those experiments are always about one of them performing some task that benefits others and how they react after seeing that, stuff like that. They can even teach each other to do things through observation. But, although they easily could, they don’t initiate a simple coordinated effort like holding something while another lifts the other end.

    #310100
    @timb
    Participant

    Interesting.  I imagine that Bonobos could be taught to do coordinated actions like that.  But it seems significant that they don’t do it naturally.

    #310129
    @timb
    Participant

    The thing about a social task like that, is it could take some communication skill that they don’t have.  If a fellow Bonobo is pulling on a log, I might be curious, but I might also consider that it was apparently important to my friend and I would not want to interfere with whatever he was doing.  He doesn’t know how to ask me for help moving a log. I don’t know how to ask him if he wants help.

    #312174
    @timb
    Participant

    I bet that behavior analysts, if there are any who work with Bonobo groups, could individually teach them to ask for assistance from one another, at least in specific tasks. With enough tasks in which asking for assistance was learned, the skill might eventually generalize.  Maybe they could, subsequently, even learn this skill from other bonobos.

    Then there would be a bonobo culture in which bonobos are particularly cooperative, until the skill was lost to the culture, due to death of those who had the skill or other group disruption in which the skill could not be passed on.

    #312180
    @3point14rat
    Participant

    It might be something missing in their ability to reason and/or communicate that prevents them from cooperating more.

    The benefits of cooperation are huge, so there’s definitely an evolutionary advantage to doing it. So the fact they don’t might mean they can’t (or at least can’t do it well enough for it to be a significant part of their society.

    It’s odd that they are so incredibly social yet can’t share in the doing of simple tasks. I bet there’s more to it than a simple failure to communicate.

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