October 4, 2019 at 2:12 pm #309725
I’m reading “The Righteous Mind”, about how self-righteousness is innate and might even be helpful to holding society together. In this diagram, he shows how we start with the emotional response, then justify it with reasons. Line #6 is dotted, because it is not so common, it’s self-reflection that rewires your thinking so your emotional response changes. I’ve seen this happen in a bad way, people start believing conspiracies and populism because they can’t work out the data. The good way, and it’s what I consider good, but others may not, is leaving your tribe or your religion and having to work out a new basis of morality.October 5, 2019 at 2:51 pm #309776
Now there’s a chart to mediate on.
What is it Spock would said,
Be fun to see this batted about by some of you deeper thinkers.October 7, 2019 at 5:24 pm #309856
Holy Crap, Mike Yohe actually was on to something. There is a theory in cultural anthropology that early tribes “domesticated themselves”. You would have never found this using what Mike said, because he so misrepresented it, it became unrecognizable. The theory is, early primates and in to early hominid tribes used alpha males to keep order, might made right. But they can be really bad at ruling a group. As weapons developed, strength was no longer the only factor for leadership, denser webs of life developed, and a despotic leader could be taken out. The ability to gain a reputation became as important as being able to win a fight, bringing more genes for reasoning into the gene pool.
This is from Part II, Chapter 8. The Conservative Advantage. There are a lot of online resources for this book, sometimes whole chapters in PDF form and a variety of extensive notes on blogs and other formats. This is an article referencing the guy, Boehm, that is referenced in this chapter.October 7, 2019 at 7:46 pm #309857@write4uParticipant
The theory is, early primates and in to early hominid tribes used alpha males to keep order, might made right. But they can be really bad at ruling a group. As weapons developed, strength was no longer the only factor for leadership, denser webs of life developed, and a despotic leader could be taken out. The ability to gain a reputation became as important as being able to win a fight, bringing more genes for reasoning into the gene pool.
IMO, the only hominid tribes which attained true civilized behavior are the Bonobo. They are matriachies and females rule by forbidding violence and rewarding good behavior with sexual favors. This seems to be very effective as there are no reports of a Bonobo ever having killed another Bonobo, whereas Chimpanzees are renowned for violent behavior and even murder.
Moreover, the close social relationships among Bonobos helps in cooperative behavior and in test it was observed that Bonobos as a group would solve various problems much faster that Chimpanzees, who usually haggled more about dominance that offering cooperation.
This may be an interesting peek at Bonobo behavior.October 7, 2019 at 8:38 pm #309858
I like bonobos.October 8, 2019 at 11:49 pm #309951
Okay here’s the description of that video up there:
Part 1 of 4. Footage about Kanzi, at the GSU Language Research Center from NHK Japan Broadcast Corporation for a special they subsequently produced called Kanzi: An Ape of Genius (English version) narrated by Dr. Sue Savage-Rumbaugh. From about 1993.
Check it out, she never stopped studying them.
TIME – Nov 30, 2016
At Great Ape Trust, TIME 100 honoree Dr. Sue Savage-Rumbaugh studies the cognitive development of bonobos, perhaps humankind’s closest relatives.
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October 8, 2019 at 11:55 pm #309952
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That one’s too short.
Things You Probably Didn’t Know About Cute Bonobos | National Geographic
National Geographic – June 16, 2014
Bonobos are the only ape that doesn’t kill. And unlike any other ape, bonobos help each other out (a lot like humans do). Through the use of “bonobo TV,” researchers found that bonobos’ yawns are contagious (also like humans). But while they have humanlike traits, their biggest threat comes from humans.October 9, 2019 at 12:27 am #309956
I started yawning, just from them talking about contagious yawning.October 9, 2019 at 9:40 am #309976
The book has a lot of data backing up what he says and he let’s you know when he’s speculating and when there is counter evidence to his ideas. So, I can’t just put up pithy quotes that summarize everything. One quote he uses (I forget the source), to make a point about the difference between us and our primate relatives is, you’ll never see two chimpanzees working together to carry a log. As much as we resemble them with our hierarchical behaviors, we get non-kin to cooperate in ways no other animals do.October 9, 2019 at 12:10 pm #310003
Bonobos are probably better than Chimps on cooperation.October 10, 2019 at 1:18 pm #310092
Yep, but those experiments are always about one of them performing some task that benefits others and how they react after seeing that, stuff like that. They can even teach each other to do things through observation. But, although they easily could, they don’t initiate a simple coordinated effort like holding something while another lifts the other end.October 10, 2019 at 3:15 pm #310100
Interesting. I imagine that Bonobos could be taught to do coordinated actions like that. But it seems significant that they don’t do it naturally.October 10, 2019 at 8:54 pm #310129
The thing about a social task like that, is it could take some communication skill that they don’t have. If a fellow Bonobo is pulling on a log, I might be curious, but I might also consider that it was apparently important to my friend and I would not want to interfere with whatever he was doing. He doesn’t know how to ask me for help moving a log. I don’t know how to ask him if he wants help.November 5, 2019 at 1:44 pm #312174
I bet that behavior analysts, if there are any who work with Bonobo groups, could individually teach them to ask for assistance from one another, at least in specific tasks. With enough tasks in which asking for assistance was learned, the skill might eventually generalize. Maybe they could, subsequently, even learn this skill from other bonobos.
Then there would be a bonobo culture in which bonobos are particularly cooperative, until the skill was lost to the culture, due to death of those who had the skill or other group disruption in which the skill could not be passed on.November 5, 2019 at 1:56 pm #312180@3point14ratParticipant
It might be something missing in their ability to reason and/or communicate that prevents them from cooperating more.
The benefits of cooperation are huge, so there’s definitely an evolutionary advantage to doing it. So the fact they don’t might mean they can’t (or at least can’t do it well enough for it to be a significant part of their society.
It’s odd that they are so incredibly social yet can’t share in the doing of simple tasks. I bet there’s more to it than a simple failure to communicate.
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