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Islamophobia isn't a real thing


Forums Forums Religion and Secularism Islamophobia isn't a real thing

This topic contains 78 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Tee Bryan Peneguy 4 days, 17 hours ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 79 total)
  • Author
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  • #309920

    TimB
    Participant

    Wow. Congress has a rule that limits its members’ freedom of speech (for the sake of the POTUS)?  That was a stupid idea.

    #309924

    Widdershins
    Participant

    Yeah, it was made during the time when the whole “3/5 of a person” thing was still in effect, so, not really that surprising that “rights” weren’t exactly at the top of their list.

    #309925

    TimB
    Participant

    I guess a few of them may have even longed for a return to a monarchy. (Due to familiarity with it.)

    #309930

    Lausten
    Keymaster

    what I am really saying is that it is not deserving of being a thing.

    That was not clear before. Glad you took the time to re-do that post.

    #309977

    Advocatus
    Participant

    Tee Bryan Peneguy wrote:  “No. I don’t see how. No other group categorized in the area of religion or belief as feared and hated in America like the Muslims are…”

    That’s only because people have been stirred up over the past 20 years to associate Muslims with terrorism.  Even though Jews and Catholics are at the top of the poll you cited, there’s still a certain amount of anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic feeling going around.  And in Conservative America there certainly are people who hate Wiccans and Buddhists and New Agers.  These groups are just not as “in your face” these days as gays and Muslims are, which is why we don’t have “-phobias” for them.  I would just point out that there really hasn’t been a big Muslim terrorist strike in the United States since 9/11!  Most of the mass shootings we’ve had lately have been done by white guys.  I don’t know about anybody else, but I don’t hate Muslims just for being Muslims.  What I hate is terrorism.  I hate anybody who shoots indiscriminately at unarmed civilians, whether they happen to be Muslims or White Supremacists or atheists.

    #309978

    Widdershins
    Participant

    Yeah, I realized that it wasn’t clear what I was saying because of the wording I chose.  It was very easy to look at the title and simply say, “Yes it is!  I’ve seen it!”  We’ve all actually seen it in spades over the last 3 years, especially.  It “exists” as defined.  It just shouldn’t be defined because it is no more a problem, and arguably far less a problem, than many other forms of religious belief discrimination which remains undefined in such a way.  And, of course, I find it personally insulting that the word was created to defend the beliefs which are used to justify putting me to death for my own beliefs, which have no such protection.

    #309987

    Advocatus
    Participant

    I’m not defending Islamic beliefs, if that’s what you mean.  But I am saying we shouldn’t automatically condemn all Muslims because of what the extreme minority does.

    #310012

    Tee Bryan Peneguy
    Participant

    @widdershins I totally understand and agree with what you are saying and originally meant to say.

    @advocates

     

     there’s still a certain amount of anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic feeling going around.  And in Conservative America there certainly are people who hate Wiccans and Buddhists and New Agers.

    Right. You are repeating what I said. I listed these groups because there IS a certain amount of hatred for them out there. However, we do not have a particular word for these; as W said, it is “defined in such a way,” which was my point.

      I would just point out that there really hasn’t been a big Muslim terrorist strike in the United States since 9/11!  Most of the mass shootings we’ve had lately have been done by white guys

    You are 100% right. I have discussed this point. On another thread here I explained the difference between what’s happening here and what’s happening worldwide.

     

      I don’t know about anybody else, but I don’t hate Muslims just for being Muslims.

    Nor do I.  In more than one thread here, I have gone gone into great detail to explain the difference between hating Muslim people and hating the religion of Islam, which is, in fact, categorically different than any other world religion in multiple ways. I have linked to a short article I wrote touching on this, and provided 2 excellent short (10 min) videos by liberal atheists (not Sam) saying exactly what I say.

     

    #310023

    Widdershins
    Participant

    @advocatus

    For the most part, with the exception of almost exclusively the religious right, nobody is condemning all Muslims for what a few extremists do.  I hate Islam.  That has nothing to do with Muslims.  I hate Christianity.  But I love my Christian mother.  The two are not the same.  I can say, “Islam is evil” and not mean “Muslims are bad”, and I do.

    I would also point out that the reason there has not been a Muslim terrorist strike in the US since 9/11 is very much NOT for lack of trying.  The Patriot Act allows the government to spy on all people, all the time.  It is a very effective tool at thwarting organized attacks.  There have been 10 planned attacks thwarted just during Trump’s time in the White House, and that’s only the publicly acknowledged ones.  Muslim terrorist attacks are still very prevalent in the rest of the world.

    While the Patriot Act keeps us safe from terrorist attack I would like to point out that I am not a supporter in the least.  The Patriot Act is more terrifying to me than any terrorist attack ever was.  If misused, the data they are collecting on us could potentially be used as a way to create a totalitarian regime without us ever knowing it.  They could, in theory, identify how each individual is likely to vote with a high degree of accuracy.  They could identify people who are likely to speak out in a certain way.  They could assess the effectiveness of propaganda nearly instantly and adjust it accordingly.  They have insight into our daily lives which could, in theory, be used to manipulate the population as a whole, behind the scenes, without us ever knowing it.  They could use this to create unrest, protests, violence, create support or disfavor for laws, even manipulate votes, not by cheating, but by using targeted propaganda to actually manipulate how people will vote.  And that’s what they could do with this information IF they were not willing to kill people to achieve their goals.  It only gets scarier from there.  If the opioid crisis has taught us anything it should be that people who have money and power will happily kill as many people as they need to in order to get more money and power, without a second thought.

    #310049

    Tee Bryan Peneguy
    Participant

    I agree with w.

    #310062

    Widdershins
    Participant

    @advocatus

    CORRECTION: I earlier asserted that 10 terrorist plots have been prevented just during Trump’s tenure, either insinuating or outright stating that these were Muslim terrorist plots.  It suddenly dawned on me a few moments ago that I had not actually checked that.  When I did, I was wrong.  Most, if not all of them were, as Advocatus claimed, white guys.  This means my claim, that Muslim lead terrorist plots in America, is currently unsupported while the claim of Advocatus is handily supported by my own facts.  I still believe what I stated, that Muslim terrorist groups are still trying but their attempts are being thwarted, but am at this minute unwilling to look it up for certain.  Until I or someone else does present facts which support my claim Advocatus should be considered to be absolutely correct and my claims dubious.

    #310063

    TimB
    Participant

    Correction noted.  We should all be regularly checking the veracity of each other’s claims, as well as that of our own.

    #310075

    Tee Bryan Peneguy
    Participant

    1/2

    An interesting and short (8-minute) piece by Slate journalist Aymann Ismail, a Muslim who’s also a Progressive, interviewing ex-Muslims about why they left the faith.

    It says that about 95% of ex-Muslims are socially and politically liberal, and they are frustrated both at liberals (who don’t take Islam seriously) and conservatives (who use their experiences to fuel right-wing hatred against Muslims).

    None of these people “hate Muslims.” They hate Islam, and they want others to understand the difference.

    (8.59) “People don’t want to talk about this. But it’s the Left that should be owning this issue, because it’s about civil rights.”

    ~Muhammad Syed, Ex-Muslims of North America

    Ismail is an Egyptian-American who grew up in New York City. He still identifies as Muslim, but I suspect he’s in the process of deconstruction. If he is intellectually honest with himself, at some time in the future (a month or a decade from now) he will wind up atheist.

    There is a place toward the end where he talks about how talking with the ex-Muslims is actually “strengthening his faith,” and he thinks more Muslims should be willing to examine their faith and discuss their issues and doubts.

    There was a long period during my deconstruction where I, too, said that talking with people of different faiths actually strengthened my own (“the unexamined faith is not worth having”).

    The problem is that in Islam, simply discussing and debating one’s difficulties Muhammad and the Qur’an is expressly prohibited. This is not the case in Christianity or Judaism.

    https://youtu.be/2bVA6TbSGU

     

    (Next)

    #310079

    Widdershins
    Participant

    Okay, I looked it up again and this time paid a little more attention.  I looked back only as far as 2016 for general data.  There are still multiple Islamist terrorist plots thwarted each year in the US with 3 on the list so far this year.  However they are all much smaller scale, usually just one person, and are by US residents and citizens who are ISIS sympathizers.  This does not exactly support my claim as I stated it.

    However, looking further back for specifics there was a thwarted incident in 2009 involving 8 men affiliated with Al Qaeda.  They had intended to bomb the New York subway system.  That is the most major thing I can find.  But they are still active in the rest of the world, so I do still believe that the only reason we don’t see those attacks here is because it’s so difficult for them to get here, and, though I hate to give him credit and the way he did it is pretty much evil (if I believed in such a thing), Trump has made it much harder for terrorists (and sick children) to get here.

    #310082

    Tee Bryan Peneguy
    Participant

    2/2

    Here, in a nutshell, are two reasons why Islam is different.

    THE SCRIPTURES

    The Christian Bible is actually a collection of at least 66 books, written by at least 40 authors over a period of 1,500 years. When Christians say the Bible is “the Word of God,” they mean that God inspired the writers. But even Fundamentalist Christians (Biblical Literalists, who see the Bible as inerrant) understand that the writers were immersed in their own cultures, and used their own words. This is why they can say things like “What is Luke saying in this chapter?” (And it’s the same for Jews with the Tanakh.)

    In contrast, the Qur’an was orally revealed by God to a single man — Muhammad — through the archangel Gabriel, over 23 years. According to tradition, Muhammad was illiterate; he could not have injected his own opinion, as the markings he put on paper were meaningless to him. For all practical purposes, the Bible was “channeled,” verbatim. When Muslims say the Qur’an is “The Word of God,” they don’t mean that it was divinely inspired. They mean, it in a very literal way, that God wrote it.

    We all interpret everything we read, even books by Dr Seuss. That’s what reading is: the brain sees letters and interprets meaning from them. But when it comes to RELIGIOUS interpretation, even the most Conservative Christians have more wiggle-room with the Bible than even the most “Liberal” Muslims have with the Qur’an. I am not saying there aren’t Muslims who are Liberal. I’m saying that Muslims have little theological justification for Liberalism.

    THE MEN

    It’s so bizarre to me, now, when Liberals say, “All religions are basically the same. God simply spoke to different people in different cultures.” I used to think this myself, until I finally saw what was blatantly obvious.

    To be clear: We don’t know the real, objective history. But let’s compare the GENERALLY- ACCEPTED NARRATIVE about both men:

    Jesus was an itinerant teacher and ascetic who ostensibly never married or owned property. He said that people should “turn the other cheek” and “love their enemies.” Other than mentioning a metaphorical sword, and using a whip on merchants in the temple, he was not violent, and extorted his followers not to use violence. He submitted to torture and execution by authorities.

    Mohammad  was a war general who led an insurgency. He fought eight major battles, led 18 raids, and planned 38 military operations. He created “the world’s first army motivated by a coherent system of ideological belief.” He was a man of wealth, much of it booty, who owned, captured and sold slaves. He had between 11 and 13 wives —  the youngest 6 years old — plus numerous concubines, and was said to have “the sexual prowess of 30 men.” Mohammed expressly demanded that his followers kill enemies of Islam, not just during his lifetime but perpetually after his death; it is a standing order.

    _____________(✪)_____________

    Now, really THINK about the difference between saying, “I love Jesus with all my heart and want to emulate him,” and someone saying “Mohammed was a great man and I wish to follow his example.

    To deny the difference between these two religions is simply ludicrous.

     

    *PS I actually spent a bit of time here, trying to explain, hoping to contribute thoughtfully to this conversation.

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