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It’s insulting and inaccurate to assume Jews are religious


Forums Forums Religion and Secularism It’s insulting and inaccurate to assume Jews are religious

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 32 total)
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  • #328724
    @timb
    Participant

    I know that they can be and often are atheists
    If you know it, they why are you happy for them to be refered to as religious? Why reject our allies?
    Would you be happy if North Americans were always refered to as white, caucasian? Why continue with something so obviously wrong?

    I do not reject secular Jews. Did you not read what I said?  I am not HAPPY that Jews are referred, as a block, to be religious.  Because I know that is not true.  I like truth.  So I agree that is inaccurate to assume that Jews as a block are religious. Not only is it inaccurate, it is ignorant. I can see that it is quite possibly insulting to secular Jewish people.

    But I am not insulted about it, except to the extent that I am insulted by falsities.

    I am not Jewish. If I were, maybe I would be insulted.  But so what?  Being insulted about something is not an argument against that something.  People get insulted about stuff all of the time. So what?  They can get un-insulted in the same pants they got insulted in.  IOW someone being insulted is no argument against that something.  I could be insulted that your name is Philip, because that is my dead brother’s name.  Is that your issue or mine? Hint: that would be my issue.

    #328726
    @timb
    Participant

    TimB: I do think equal pay for women is a more important issue…….

    Philip: I wasn’t comparing which was the most important issue or what is your personal view on equal pay for women.
    I was saying that… …this is the same style of argument as saying that dis-enfranchising and misrepresenting the views of millions of people, is not important.

    TimB:  What I think is important about your issue on this matter is the fact that representing all Jews as religious is not true. So please spread the truth. Personally, I think there are a lot more outright lies in the public domain today that are MORE destructive that this one.  But if this is the most important lie for you to fight against, please, go for it.

    #328727
    @philip456
    Participant

    @timb

    I can see that it is quite possibly insulting to secular Jewish people.

    I’m glad that we are in agreement.

    As an atheist, I wouldn’t be happy if I was always assumed to be religious and constantly referred to as a religious person.

    But I think that is a side-issue. The main point is that it very inaccurate, in print, blogs and speeches, for millions of secular people to be refered to as religious.

    #328743
    @timb
    Participant

    The main point is that it very inaccurate, in print, blogs and speeches, for millions of secular people to be refered to as religious.

    I agree that it is inaccurate for millions of secular people to be referred to as religious. To the extent that that is the case, I wish you well in your efforts toward that characterization being corrected in the public domain.

    #328776
    @thatoneguy
    Participant

    @theoneguy
    Not sure it’s a big concern as most Americans already think of Jews as an ethnic group first and a religion second.
    Just my point. Jew are not a religion first, second or at all. They are a people.
    It would be like refering to Arabs, instead of Muslims.

    I don’t think Jews as an ethnic group can be fully separated from Judaism in the way you can separate Arabs as and ethnic group and Islam.

    As far as I know, Judaism plays a pretty big role in the Jewish identity whether an individual is secular or not.

    • This reply was modified 1 day, 21 hours ago by thatoneguy.
    • This reply was modified 1 day, 21 hours ago by thatoneguy.
    #328779
    @sree
    Participant

    As far as I know, Judaism plays a pretty big role in the Jewish identity whether an individual is secular or not.

    Chosen people, real or not, Jews came from the Burning Bush. They can’t run away from it. God chose them. It’s like denying that your father brought you into the world. A secular Jew is an oxymoron.

    #328784
    @timb
    Participant

    As far as I know, Judaism plays a pretty big role in the Jewish identity whether an individual is secular or not.

    Putting aside Sree’s hilarious burning bush fantasies, I suspect that you are partially (as usual) correct.  I also suspect that there are some Jews who don’t give a flying flip about Judaism.

    #328785
    @sree
    Participant

    I also suspect that there are some Jews who don’t give a flying flip about Judaism.

    That is like saying there are some Muslims who don’t give a flying flip about Islam. Such Muslims drink whiskey as some Jews eat bacon. It’s like a guy who doesn’t give a flying flip about being a man. Such guys put on make-up and wear women clothes.

    #328793
    @timb
    Participant

    That is like saying there are some Muslims who don’t give a flying flip about Islam.

    Not exactly. If your mom is a Jew, then you are considered to be a Jew, but you may have never learned a thing about Judaism.  And you might not care about any religion. Whereas, to be Muslim, you only have to say you are Muslim and that you believe some of the doctrine. And you can stop being a Muslim by simply saying so. (Though, in that case, other Muslims might kill you.)

    It’s like a guy who doesn’t give a flying flip about being a man. Such guys put on make-up and wear women clothes.

    You are ridiculously hilarious with some of the stuff you come up with. Idk, but I’m guessing they enjoy it.  You don’t think a man can enjoy sexual kinks?  You need some sessions with Dr Ruth.

     

     

    #328802
    @philip456
    Participant

    @sree

    … there are some Jews who don’t give a flying flip about Judaism. >> That is like saying there are some Muslims who don’t give a flying flip about Islam

    It’s difficult to know how to put this more simply.

    Jews are an ethnic group.  Some are religious, the majority are not.

    Muslims are a religious group. They are all religious by definition.

    We shouldn’t treat them both as equally religious groups.

    • This reply was modified 1 day, 14 hours ago by Philip.
    • This reply was modified 1 day, 14 hours ago by Philip.
    #328808
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    It’s difficult to know how to put this more simply.

    Jews are an ethnic group.  Some are religious, the majority are not.

    It’s easy to oversimplify. Yes you can look at some of their DNA and determine they were descended from some tribe. After that, it’s a large spectrum, from fundamentalists that the ancient tribe wouldn’t recognize, to those who go to Synagogue but don’t believe, to those who have no connection to the culture at all.

    Depending on how you interpret the numbers, you could be right about saying “majority”

    #328823
    @sree
    Participant

    Jews are an ethnic group.  Some are religious, the majority are not.

    Says you. Let’s look at what Wikipedia says:

    “Jews or Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group and a nation, originating from the Israelites and Hebrews of historical Israel and Judah. Jewish ethnicity, nationhood, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the ethnic religion of the Jewish people, while its observance varies from strict observance to complete nonobservance.”

    Muslims are a religious group. They are all religious by definition.

    The difference between Islam and Judaism is that while anyone can become a Muslim no one can choose to become a Jew. Embracing Islam is as easy as putting on a fur coat. Anybody can do it: put it on or, be an apostate, and take it off. Being a Jew is to be the critter itself, coat and all. A secular Jew is a coyote prancing around without its coat. I have never seen one. Have you?

    #328824
    @timb
    Participant

    The difference between Islam and Judaism is that while anyone can become a Muslim no one can choose to become a Jew. Embracing Islam is as easy as putting on a fur coat. Anybody can do it: put it on or, be an apostate, and take it off. Being a Jew is to be the critter itself, coat and all. A secular Jew is a coyote prancing around without its coat. I have never seen one. Have you?

    If being wrong were a misdemeanor, Sree, you would have a life sentence due to being a chronic repeat offender.

    Actually, someone can become a religious Jew without having been born a Jew.  It is not particularly easy, but it is possible.

    But if you were born a Jew (via a Jewish mother), then you can be considered to be a Jew whether or not you have any religiosity.

    When you are wrong, do you have to draw attention to it with absurdities? Really.  A hairless coyote?

     

    #328838
    @sree
    Participant

    Actually, someone can become a religious Jew without having been born a Jew. It is not particularly easy, but it is possible.

    The Rabbi wouldn’t accept you anymore than the Chinese police would accept a self-declared Iraqi ex-Muslim atheist. No open borders except in liberal America.

    But if you were born a Jew (via a Jewish mother), then you can be considered to be a Jew whether or not you have any religiosity.

    Do you know why? Only suckers accept anchor babies.

    When you are wrong, do you have to draw attention to it with absurdities? Really. A hairless coyote?

    A skinless coyote. Get it right. A sloppy mind is a liberal’s workshop.

    #328842
    @timb
    Participant

    Sree, you have the arguing skills of a skinless coyote.

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