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Levels of Understanding For the Human Visual Experience


Forums Forums Philosophy Levels of Understanding For the Human Visual Experience

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 106 total)
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  • #327515
    @steveklinko
    Blocked

    3point14r:
    Why is your flowery speech limited to human sight? Octopus, gnats, owls and lobsters all have eyes. Nothing new-agey or so amazing it’s worth capitalizing every third word when describing their ability to see. Why is human sight special?

    Typical Obfuscation and Diversion from someone who just does not want to talk about the topic of the OP.

    #327526
    @3point14rat
    Participant

    I did talk about the topic of the OP. But I also posed this question to help me understand the point of the OP: why you believe human sight is different in any way than the same ability found in other animals?

    Until I know what you’re talking about, it is impossible to answer you.

     

    P.S. – I Try not to obfuscate or divert From the topic at Hand unless it is necessary To Clarify some part of the discussion That Is Unclear. An example of This is my Question Above – without knowing What you are talking About, There Is no way I can respond. If you want to avoid needless Quibbles And misunderstandings, you Need To be clear in your messaging.

    P.P.S. – The proper use of capital letters is another way of making sure your message is as easy to understand as possible. We have rules that define how to write properly because it makes communication easier. Not knowing or following all of the rules is fine (at least I hope it’s fine because I don’t know a lot of them), but ignoring the simplest and most common ones is not advised if you want to be taken seriously. That said, If you have reasons for capitalizing random words, please let us know what they are!

    #327527
    @write4u
    Participant

    steveklinko said: Huge Hard Problem and Explanatory Gap exists in the Scientific understanding of Consciousness.

    Only if you make it mysterious. There is no light inside a skull, the brain resides in total darkness (absence of light). When we see a lighted object we do not generate light inside our brain, we experience light as a neural excitation.  Perhaps a better example is “pain” as a neural excitation.  When we stub our toe,  the pain we feel is not inside our brain, it’s in our toe. The brain merely translates the neural excitation into a experiential event.

    And so it does in translating “light”.  Our brain and skull remain dark, but the brain translates the neural input as an experiential event.

    If we are blind we  are unable to experience “sight” altogether. There is only darkness.  OTOH some people can taste light and color.  This is possible because it is not a representation of reality, but only a “best guess” by the brain of what it is experiencing.

    #327533
    @write4u
    Participant

    @steve,

    Consider this; a blind person can generate a mental picture of his surroundings by sonar. Many animals use echo-location to scan and visualize their environment.

    Explore The World’s Most Detailed Map Of The Seafloor

    https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_1600/ge7h8kurxklmg5hcoazo.jpg

    https://io9.gizmodo.com/explore-the-worlds-most-detailed-map-of-the-seafloor-r-1642315933

    #327547
    @steveklinko
    Blocked

    3point14r:
    P.S. – I Try not to obfuscate or divert From the topic at Hand unless it is necessary To Clarify some part of the discussion That Is Unclear. An example of This is my Question Above – without knowing What you are talking About, There Is no way I can respond. If you want to avoid needless Quibbles And misunderstandings, you Need To be clear in your messaging.
    P.P.S. – The proper use of capital letters is another way of making sure your message is as easy to understand as possible. We have rules that define how to write properly because it makes communication easier. Not knowing or following all of the rules is fine (at least I hope it’s fine because I don’t know a lot of them), but ignoring the simplest and most common ones is not advised if you want to be taken seriously. That said, If you have reasons for capitalizing random words, please let us know what they are!

    I don’t study animal Consciousness and cannot study animal Consciousness. The only Consciousness that anyone can study is their own. We can then compare notes about our own findings when we discuss Consciousness.

    If you want to be a Grammar Zombie then go post on a Grammar Forum.

    #327548
    @steveklinko
    Blocked

    write4u:
    Only if you make it mysterious. There is no light inside a skull, the brain resides in total darkness (absence of light). When we see a lighted object we do not generate light inside our brain, we experience light as a neural excitation.  Perhaps a better example is “pain” as a neural excitation.  When we stub our toe,  the pain we feel is not inside our brain, it’s in our toe. The brain merely translates the neural excitation into a experiential event. And so it does in translating “light”.  Our brain and skull remain dark, but the brain translates the neural input as an experiential event. If we are blind we  are unable to experience “sight” altogether. There is only darkness.  OTOH some people can taste light and color.  This is possible because it is not a representation of reality, but only a “best guess” by the brain of what it is experiencing.

    Of course there is no Electromagnetic Light inside anyone’s Skull, but that not what the issue is. The Light is the Conscious Light (See http://TheInterMind.com) or what some people like to call the Light Qualia.

    #327549
    @steveklinko
    Blocked

    write4u:
    Consider this; a blind person can generate a mental picture of his surroundings by sonar. Many animals use echo-location to scan and visualize their environment.

    Sorry but I don’t understand the relevancy of this.

    #327550
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    The only Consciousness that anyone can study is their own. We can then compare notes about our own findings when we discuss Consciousness.

    You’re contradicting yourself here, and it’s the core problem of your entire thesis. Of course we can study the consciousness of other beings. That’s what “compare notes” means.

    #327553
    @steveklinko
    Blocked

    lausten:
    Of course we can study the consciousness of other beings. That’s what “compare notes” means.

    Do you really think that hearing someone’s description of their Conscious Experience is just as good as you examining your own Conscious Experience? Your statement manifests a complete lack of interest in the subject, or a complete misunderstanding of the issue, or a purposeful intention to Obfuscate.

    #327565
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    Do you really think that hearing someone’s description of their Conscious Experience is just as good as you examining your own Conscious Experience?

    Learning is found in the comparison, not just the examining. It was only very recently that humans understood that thoughts are related to the brain. We do not sense thoughts happening. There are no feelings in the brain. Headaches come from blood vessels around it. It’s only because we now are told that thoughts are in our head that we imagine them being there. Why do you think there are charts for your chakras? Because people believe they experience things in those parts of their body.

    People who examine their own consciousness think they are soul travelling to Jupiter, but I’m sitting there watching them and can pretty much confirm they didn’t go anywhere. Your examinations of what’s going on in your head are about on that level.

    #327601
    @steveklinko
    Blocked

    lausten:
    Learning is found in the comparison, not just the examining. It was only very recently that humans understood that thoughts are related to the brain. We do not sense thoughts happening. There are no feelings in the brain. Headaches come from blood vessels around it. It’s only because we now are told that thoughts are in our head that we imagine them being there. Why do you think there are charts for your chakras? Because people believe they experience things in those parts of their body.
    People who examine their own consciousness think they are soul travelling to Jupiter, but I’m sitting there watching them and can pretty much confirm they didn’t go anywhere. Your examinations of what’s going on in your head are about on that level.

    Now that’s an example of Obfuscation right there. You equated Examining the Conscious Experience of Redness with soul travel to Jupiter. Looks like you don’t want to have any kind a rational conversation about Consciousness. A little Grammar School off topic quip is your level of discussion.

    #327613
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    Or it’s you who doesn’t want rational conversation. How can you tell?

    #327615
    @write4u
    Participant

    lausten: Of course we can study the consciousness of other beings. That’s what “compare notes” means.

    steveklinko: Do you really think that hearing someone’s description of their Conscious Experience is just as good as you examining your own Conscious Experience? Your statement manifests a complete lack of interest in the subject, or a complete misunderstanding of the issue, or a purposeful intention to Obfuscate.

    All your brain can do is make a “best guess” of the information your senses distribute to the brain. It is when we agree on our guesses, that we can call it reality (by consensus).

    You told me I keep drawing attention to the lecture by Anil Seth, but it is clear you have not given any thought to what this scientist is talking about.

    Therefore I urge you to watch that lecture one more time and give thought to the implications of what he is talking about. The brain creates our subjective reality from the inside out as much as from the outside in. Think about that for a moment.

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by Write4U.
    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by Write4U.
    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by Write4U.
    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by Write4U.
    #327618
    @sree
    Participant

    The brain creates our subjective reality from the inside out as much as from the outside in. Think about that for a moment.

    I thought about it a long time ago and still think about it now and then. The brain is just an organ. I don’t know what it is for. I can accept that the heart pumps blood and the lungs are for breathing. The brain is definitely connected to the spinal cord spreading the nerves all over the body making muscles twitch and stuff. Subjective reality is something else. It’s a leap of faith to conclude that the brain is like the IMAX cinema, a proprietary system of high-resolution cameras, film formats, film projectors having very large screens with a immense aspect ratio.

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by Sree.
    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by Sree.
    #327621
    @write4u
    Participant

    sree said: Subjective reality is something else. It’s a leap of faith to conclude that the brain is like the IMAX cinema, a proprietary system of high-resolution cameras, film formats, film projectors having very large screens with a immense aspect ratio.

    Yes, that’s what is called the “hard problem”. How is the brain able to present a life-size landscape in the space of  some 1200 cm^3 ? This is the reason why we can so easily take a leap of faith in believing that our consciousness resides outside our brain as a “soul”.  But that is not at all how it works.        But is not a matter of looking at a screen like a cinemax either.  It is an experiential event. We experience reality and our brain tries to make sense out what we experience. It makes a best guess of what it thinks is out there.

    There are some sensory abilities which we don’t even consciously experience at all. This is called “interoception”, the control mechanism of our internal organs that keep us alive. Can you perceive the trillions of bacteria in your gut?  They are there, but your brain doesn’t need to know that they are there. It only needs to know when they are not doing their job and you get an upset stomach. That is an unconscious but functional “control” mechanism of the brain.

    But conscious awareness of our external environment requires direct “observation” by all our senses. The brain has “learned” (evolved) to represent those external experiences as a visual (meme) experience. Memes are one known example of informational viral patterns.

    My own belief is that the trillions of microtubules in our brains and bodies (the neural network) allows us to fashion a kind of composite holographic experience.  Microtubules are nano-scale processors of the electro-chemical information generated by our sensory receptors. Arrays of Microtubules are used for memory storage, which allows us to “recall” and “compare” new information against our stored experiential memories.

    From that self-referential process the brain is able to make a best guess of what is going on externally. And when most of us agree, we call that reality. This already starts at the bacterial level, with quorum sensing.  A termite mound is a marvel of engineering by a “hive mind”, which creates an entire city.

    Structure of an M. natalensis mound

    Other species experience reality completely different from us.  A whale or a bat (and some blind people) can create an image of their landscape or prey generated by sonar (like our fish finders) .

    https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/humminbird-helix-9-dual-spectrum-chirp-gps-g3n-fish-finder?a=2193988

    It all depends on how the actual environment shapes “perception” over billions of years of adaptation to the environment. It is really easy to forget the evolutionary process which is a constant refinement of perceptional abilities in almost all organisms over enormous times and spatial scales.

    The mathematical function of “passive natural selection” is just as effective as the human ability to effect “active human selection” for desirable traits.

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by Write4U.
    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by Write4U.
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