November 15, 2019 at 8:37 pm #313284@timbParticipant
TimB: Men of another era created the Judeo/Christian God and that God’s morality.
Men can also come up with moral standards without necessarily inventing a supreme being to do so.
Religiosity is thus not needed for us to have a humanistic morality. In fact, it could be a hindrance.
Sherlock: The fact is that what we call “morality” is nothing more than modes of behavior that have arisen through natural selection. All modes arose through natural selection including the modes you like to call “good” and the modes you like to call “evil” they are the result of natural selection and natural laws.
Isn’t that what you must agree to if you’re an atheist?
TimB: Sherlock, you are fundamentally incorrect in some ways. You attribute morality to natural selection which is ultimately a truism, since everything about organisms is attributable to natural selection on the primary level. However, some things we learn AFTER we are imbued with life. Culture is predominately one of those. Morality is also predominantly a factor of learning, tho I don’t think completely so.
At birth (and/or conception) we don’t hold the belief systems that we will learn and adopt later in our lives. Depending on our experiences, that might be very different (i.e., if there were simultaneous clones of me at conception, and all were born successfully, but each was raised in quite different environments then at a later point in our lives, we would have different moral values from each other.) And this occurred according to natural laws, since everything occurs due to natural laws. (Just don’t leave out an entire set of natural laws like those that involve learning.)
.November 18, 2019 at 10:16 pm #313591@timbParticipant
I suppose you are getting at the determined nature of the universe. Whatever we do, occurs by virtue of natural laws. Yes.
Our values/morals are determined according to natural laws. If we act in discordance with our values/morals, we are guilty. (In compatibilist free will, one is not guilty if they act in accordance with their belief systems. Also if they are forced to act in discordance with their value system, they would not be guilty.)
That is one level of guilt v. innocence. Another is the legal/& social system in which we live. If we break a law/more, even if doing so was consistent with our own values/morals/beliefs – we are considered by society (if it is proven) to be guilty.
We humans create laws, morals, values, mores, ethical considerations, guidelines, etc. We created the G/gods and religions that developed their particular rules, commandments, morals, etc. All of that morality stuff came from the mind of humans. ALL OF IT.
Did Mark Twain say something like, “Humans are the only creature that knows right and wrong, and chooses to do wrong anyway.”?December 26, 2019 at 4:30 am #316444@write4uParticipant
Joseph Campbell has done extensive study of mythology around the world and found several “common denominators” in all mythological stories of with a central hero. He wrote a book “The hero with a thousand faces” which analyzes the common themes in almost all mythological stories.
This video is a summary and explanation of the book.December 26, 2019 at 7:06 am #316455@sreeParticipant
Joseph Campbell said:
“God is a metaphor for a mystery that absolutely transcends all human categories of thought, even the categories of being and non-being. Those are categories of thought. I mean it’s as simple as that. So it depends on how much you want to think about it. Whether it’s doing you any good. Whether it is putting you in touch with the mystery that’s the ground of your own being. If it isn’t, well, it’s a lie. So half the people in the world are religious people who think that their metaphors are facts. Those are what we call theists. The other half are people who know that the metaphors are not facts. And so, they’re lies. Those are the atheists.”
Campbell was quite right in pointing out that both theists and atheists are engaged in battle over the metaphor of God. What about the mystery of God? Campbell did acknowledge that the mystery transcends human thought. Nothing scientific about that because he had neither evidence nor proof but just a hunch.
Religion, therefore, is not a matter of faith, the stuff of theists and their atheistic antagonists. It is the yearning of the human spirit to find the truth about life. And if Campbell was right about the mystery’s nature that transcends thought, then there is no way to figure it out with our thinking caps. So, how did Campbell know that the mystery is beyond human consciousness? The very idea is alien to the western mind.December 26, 2019 at 7:19 am #316456@laustenKeymaster
So, how did Campbell know that the mystery is beyond human consciousness?
I find it hard to believe that you believe this is a coherent question. Mystery means we don’t know. I don’t think Campbell ever said “beyond human consciousness” and I don’t know what you (or if he said it, he) mean by that. Mystery is what is currently “beyond” our knowledge. We live with mystery. It’s not alien to the western mind. We went to the moon to find out what is there. Mystery motivates people.
Also, a metaphor is not a lie. But I don’t believe you think that either, so I’m not going to discuss it with you.December 26, 2019 at 8:23 am #316463@blaireParticipant
Yes! I’ve researched the similarities of Jesus Christ, Hare Krishna and Ahuro Mazda/Zooroster. The Immaculate Conception, good versus evil spirits…etc
The attached link is obviously dated, but very straightforward and approximately 12 minutes long.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.