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Please Help Me Continue to Examine Why I Believe Jesus Rose Bodily from the Dead


Forums Forums Religion and Secularism Please Help Me Continue to Examine Why I Believe Jesus Rose Bodily from the Dead

Viewing 15 posts - 211 through 225 (of 241 total)
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  • #327507
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    I’ll spend some more time with your post later, but for now, I guess we’re done. I’m not sure what unanswered questions you are talking about, but I don’t plan to go back and look for them. If you want to list them, I’d be glad to take a stab at them, but I won’t be putting quite as much effort. I’ve spent my time on the core of your belief and you’ve just kept repeating yourself. You’ve been gracious, but this is no longer dialog.

    I am not making up 7 imaginary people.  That is just a calculation of how many times, at a minimum, the information had to be passed from person to person (or generation to generation) to make it intact to AD 325.  Whether they have names or can be found in historical record does not matter.

    There is no difference between “Whether they have names or can be found in historical record does not matter.” and you made up the 7 people. The only way we know if something was transmitted accurately from the past is if we know something about how it was transmitted. If it was orally, something about the people who said it, if it was written, we need the writing. We don’t have that. We have many versions of the Jesus story with no way to know which one is right, or if any of them are right.

    #327756
    @blaire
    Participant

    @foodofthe5000

    I’m so sorry to hear about your son! Sending you love and compassion my friend.

    Regarding the Resurrection.

    How does Jesus end up in a tomb when he’s not wealthy and he was crucified by the ruling class? Second, the Roman practice at the time was to leave them on the cross, then transfer them to a mass grave. Also, there is no historical record of a place called Arimathea. Professor Richard Carrier advocates that Jesus did Not even exist.

    Part of being an atheist for me is to acknowledge there are answers we don’t have and having the intellectual courage to admit this rather than run to the comfort blanket of assertations that are not properly evidenced.

    The attached video is 3 minutes long. The psychologist discusses the psychology of belief.

    #327778
    @write4u
    Participant

    Please Help Me Continue to Examine Why I Believe Jesus Rose Bodily from the Dead

    Do you really believe Jesus rose bodily (physically) from the dead? What makes you believe that and why?

    #327814
    @foodofthe5000
    Participant

    @lausten

    I’ll spend some more time with your post later, but for now, I guess we’re done…You’ve been gracious, but this is no longer dialog.

    I’m glad that you feel I have been gracious.  That is my primary objective, so at least I hit that mark.  I also feel that you have been very gracious with your time and patience.  I know that there were at least three times when you commented that I was repeating myself.  From my perspective, I have tried each time to to reply in a way that rephrased my thinking to help the dialog stay on track.  But, however graciously, whatever I think I’m doing, if it ain’t working, it ain’t working.  I would love to understand what I am doing (or not doing) that is stopping dialog.  If “we are done”, you have certainly given it more than the old college try. Thank you.  I have had a very positive experience and I look forward to crossing paths in other forums in the CFI community.  I highly recommend CFI to others.

    I am now listening to the audible version of AD 381, whenever I can, in very small bites throughout the day.  I loved the introduction and preface.  I am on Chapter 5.  If you have a second, what do you suggest that I focus on that will help me with my “repetition problem”.

     I’m not sure what unanswered questions you are talking about, but I don’t plan to go back and look for them. If you want to list them, I’d be glad to take a stab at them

    Thanks again.  This is really not a big issue for me and it hasn’t happened very much.  Maybe 2-3 times.  Only one comes to mind.  Like you, I am not interested in going back to find them all.  The one I recall off-hand is from April 11, 2020 at 3:49 am #326224:

    Eventually, one day I was walking in a park and instead of thinking of Jesus walking with me, I realized the narrative failed. It didn’t provide comfort. It didn’t provide anything the universe and the creatures in it weren’t providing. Belief was no longer needed.

    Let me restate what I think you are saying.  Please confirm whether or not I am understanding you correctly; you stopped believing that Yeshua rose bodily from the dead because you no longer needed to believe it?

    I was really looking forward to your response.  I deeply respect and love apologetics, history and scientific inquiry.  I acknowledge the authority of facts.  But I am not an apologist, historian or scientist.  I am more in my element with personal inquiry.  I am deeply drawn to understand the perceptions of others.  And, when possible have the other person confirm that they feel I understand their perception.

    There is no difference between “Whether they have names or can be found in historical record does not matter.” and you made up the 7 people. The only way we know if something was transmitted accurately from the past is if we know something about how it was transmitted. If it was orally, something about the people who said it, if it was written, we need the writing. We don’t have that. We have many versions of the Jesus story with no way to know which one is right, or if any of them are right.

    Forgive me, it is late, and I also wanted to reply to the other comments.  So I will leave this be for now..  I would probably just repeat myself anyway.  🙂

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by SethWT. Reason: removed extra word "to"
    • This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by SethWT. Reason: removed extra word "to"
    #327816
    @foodofthe5000
    Participant

    @blaire

    Thank you so much for your kind words and love.  Best definition of love I have heard yet: Willing the good of the other, as other.  Thanks for willing my good.

    I greatly enjoyed the Dr. Lack video.  As well as the one you shared on Pagels.  I find myself in agreement with what Dr. Lack said.  In particular, not trying to find what I want to believe, but rather, what actually is.  I have developed a method of formal civil discourse which I hope promotes just that kind of non-egoic inquiry.

    How does Jesus end up in a tomb when he’s not wealthy and he was crucified by the ruling class? Second, the Roman practice at the time was to leave them on the cross, then transfer them to a mass grave. Also, there is no historical record of a place called Arimathea. Professor Richard Carrier advocates that Jesus did Not even exist.

    Someone donating a tomb for Yeshua seems no stranger than the claim in Acts that lots of people sold all they had and lived a communal life with other followers of “The Way”.  Both are very hard to believe given the current levels of historical evidence and scientific inquiry available today.  I really enjoyed the book, Jesus Mything in Action, by David Fitzgerald.  He talks a lot about Richard Carrier.  I acknowledge that my belief in the bodily resurrection of Yeshua may not be accurate.  It may be a result of my own biases of belief and the effects of culture on me. That is not the “high ground” of my belief.

    Part of being an atheist for me is to acknowledge there are answers we don’t have and having the intellectual courage to admit this rather than run to the comfort blanket of assertions that are not properly evidenced.

    Courage.  I believe courage is part of the beauty of atheism.  I joyfully admit, I like running to the comfort of blankets, especially if I am freezing.  I am sure you do too.  Maybe it is stretching the fabric of the analogy too far, but the way I see it, I trust that I will recognize that the blanket is just a mirage if I put it on and it provides no warmth.  To me this is a valid form of inquiry, and also a courageous one.

     

    #327817
    @foodofthe5000
    Participant

    @write4u

    I will be happy to answer that later if you want me to.  It is late and I have to stop for the night.  Please, may I first ask, have you read my article?  Food of The 5000

    #327828
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    you stopped believing that Yeshua rose bodily from the dead because you no longer needed to believe it?

    Late for you is early for me. I couldn’t get back to sleep, so I just got up and caught your post. Hope all is well with the family.

    I didn’t answer this earlier because I never “needed” to believe. At least I didn’t think of it that way. Maybe I thought everyone believed in something and I should too. But it was more like I felt a need for community and churches are definitely communities. The need for community is part of our nature as social creatures, and you can make a good case for it, survival wise. But, Christians will draw you in with that, then they start saying things about how this love you feel really comes from Jesus, and you should study this one book and memorize these phrases, and give money because, well, we need this building.

    The more I studied, the more questions I had and at some point the cognitive dissonance of the lack of answers and real basis of these relationships gets to be too much. I still have good friends that I met in church, but I have to hold them at a distance if they don’t accept me as I am, a non-believer. This is true for everyone or there wouldn’t be different gods and denominations. A Protestant holds a Catholic at that same distance if they start trying to convince them that the cracker turns in to Jesus.

    I already had a decent community in place, without church, so it wasn’t a huge struggle for me. I had some things to work out and found alternatives to the rituals. The belief part was never something I needed. It was a requirement that those communities have if you want to be part of them.

    #327850
    @blaire
    Participant

    @foodofthe5000

    As mentioned in another post, I was a devout Christian for over 40yrs.

    After leaving Christianity I found myself longing for community and fellowship. I now attend a Unitarian Universalist Church. Most of the congregation identifies as agnostic or atheist. We volunteer our time helping the indigent and elderly in the community. We also go to Africa once a year to help with orphaned children. I’ll attach a link to a Unitarian Church service.

     

    Sending you light in your time of darkness 🙌   💫

    #327869
    @write4u
    Participant

    FoT5000 said: I will be happy to answer that later if you want me to.  It is late and I have to stop for the night.  Please, may I first ask, have you read my article?  Food of The 5000

    Thank you, that was a nicely written piece. Well reasoned and understated. I like the positive philosophy in such an account.

    Unfortunately there is no evidence for any of this, other than that Jesus might actually have existed and that he was a good teacher.  And I give Jesus the benefit of doubt of the assertion that he declared himself as the son of god.  That sounds a little too naive or too contrived for my sober atheist mind.

    He might have cried “Father, why hast thou forsaken me” when they crucified him, but again that is no proof of anything.

    I have nothing against Christianity as a general positive philosophy, but any declaration that this is representative of some greater wisdom is difficult for me to accept.  I don’t give humans that much credit. If we represent such great overarching wisdom why are we ruining this beautiful planet?  And then we dare speak of terra-forming planets that are much more hostile than this one is one of the great follies of mankind.

    Never lose sight of the fact that all Humans are smart apes, including Jesus and all the apostles and believers. There is proof that we are apes, there is no proof we are in the image of God. We certainly don’t behave like Gods, unless you want to believe that Gods are human and that’s a whole different story.

    #328078
    @timb
    Participant

    Food, I like your socially friendly writing style.

    I don’t like religions, in general, because they are all bullshit dogma, and superstitious nonsense, and basically lies, yet they require belief in all that crap.

    (I don’t have your consistent style of communicating pleasantly. But I am interested in your understanding my perspective.) I empathize with your relating your mother’s religiosity when she was near death.  All of my nuclear family (they are now all deceased) were religious.  I never said anything to undermine their beliefs. In fact I had the opportunity to tell 2 of them to “Time to Go to Jesus!”  as the moment of their death approached, as I thought it might give them some comfort in their last moments of life.

    But personally, I know that it is bullshit.

    What if I decided that King Arthur was a real person, who actually had a magic sword that he pulled from a stone, etc.?  Maybe I could come up with 5000 of his purported contemporaries who witnessed his various miracles.

    Then that just proves that I can use fiction to support my devout belief in a fictional character being real.

    #330930
    @foodofthe5000
    Participant

    @ lausten

    I have really missed this forum!  Thanks everybody for your well wishes for me and my family.  I am sure you all carry heavy burdens too. Mostly unspoken and unnoticed.  My work in the counseling field has made it clear to me that everyone carries a heavy burden.  I am always humbled by the courage and fortitude of the folks with whom I interact.

    The belief part was never something I needed. It was a requirement that those communities have if you want to be part of them.

    Thanks again for the clarification.  I think that a good litmus test of the health of a religious community is how welcomed and accepted a non-believer is in their midst.  And not just that the non-believer ‘feels’ welcomed.  I mean how sincerely accepted, welcomed and valued the person is by the others in the community.  Not a tolerance while waiting for them to ‘come around to the truth’.  The non-believer is essential to a healthy religious community because their presence provides a source of the essential humility we all need to acknowledge the edges/limits/blind-spots of our understanding.  I am never going to learn something if I’m certain I already know it.

    This is what The 5000 is all about.  I don’t remember the disciples telling Thomas that he was required to believe Yeshua had risen from the dead just because they had seen him.  To the contrary, I think it is a requirement of followers of Yeshua that we mind our own damn business.  Who Yeshua decides to pass the Thomas Test for is his call.  And besides, I believe that there have only been about 5000 humans for whom Yeshua has chosen to pass the Thomas Test.  And that was over 2000 years ago.  So, IMHO we, in the ‘religious community’, need to chill the Hell out.  Literally.  Just don’t go there!  If we can’t love our neighbor we can at least shut our mouths and act like it until we do.

    #330931
    @foodofthe5000
    Participant

    @write4u

    Thank you, that was a nicely written piece. Well reasoned and understated. I like the positive philosophy in such an account.

    Thanks for the kind words and thank you for reading The 5000!

    Do you really believe Jesus rose bodily (physically) from the dead? What makes you believe that and why?

    Did this question get answered for you in The 5000?

    #330932
    @foodofthe5000
    Participant

    @timb

    Food, I like your socially friendly writing style… I don’t have your consistent style of communicating pleasantly

    Thanks for noticing.  It is a conscious style.  I call it “Fred Rogerian”.  As in Fred Rodgers from Mr. Rogers Neighborhood.  He is noted for frequently reminding folks that in every moment we can choose to be either an advocate or an accuser.  He said that he tried to be as much of an advocate as possible.  I have been trying this out with very good results.  It is amazing how rarely I really need to be an accuser.  Taking a path of advocacy has much more profound positive results. Especially when something desperately needs to change or is wrong.  In fact, I am finding it harder and harder to find times when I need to be an accuser.  It appears that accusation is best done by people we hire to do it; like attorneys, judges and officers of the law.  After I write a post, one of the things I proof read for is to see if I can eliminate accusation.  I am trying to learn how to do this without being pedantic or repetitive (@lausten is helping me with that one).  I also find that people sometimes seem to feel I am pumping them for their opinions without sharing my own which they feel is rude and tiresome.  OK, now I feel like I am starting to ramble…

    I empathize with your relating your mother’s religiosity when she was near death.  All of my nuclear family (they are now all deceased) were religious.  I never said anything to undermine their beliefs. In fact I had the opportunity to tell 2 of them to “Time to Go to Jesus!”  as the moment of their death approached, as I thought it might give them some comfort in their last moments of life.

    But personally, I know that it is bullshit.

    I’d say that it appears you are a quite a high-level wizard alchemist to turn bullshit into kindness.  Well played!

    So, please give it to me straight, as I trust you will; after reading The 5000, what is your understanding of why I believe that Yeshua rose bodily from the dead?  Please trust me, I am not setting you up for a ‘gotcha’.  I am really just trying to better understand my own belief.  I appreciate your help.  You may gain nothing from this. But it would help me if you were to state your understanding of my belief.  I will then respond by either clarifying or acknowledging that I feel you do understand me accurately.  Thanks.

    #330992
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    Hey Seth, now it’s me dealing with family issues. Nice to hear from you.

    #331505
    @foodofthe5000
    Participant

    Hi Lausten,

    Nice to hear from you too my friend.  But not happy to hear of trouble for you and yours.  You have all my best wishes!

     

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