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Please Help Me Continue to Examine Why I Believe Jesus Rose Bodily from the Dead


Forums Forums Religion and Secularism Please Help Me Continue to Examine Why I Believe Jesus Rose Bodily from the Dead

Viewing 15 posts - 226 through 240 (of 241 total)
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  • #331581
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    you are a quite a high-level wizard alchemist to turn bullshit into kindness — Seth to Tim

    LOL. Classic. And true.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Lausten.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Lausten.
    #331592
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    To the contrary, I think it is a requirement of followers of Yeshua that we mind our own damn business.  Who Yeshua decides to pass the Thomas Test for is his call.  And besides, I believe that there have only been about 5000 humans for whom Yeshua has chosen to pass the Thomas Test. — SethW

    Didn’t see this coming. The first sentence is one that every atheist wishes all Christians would say. Atheism is “anti” by definition. We organize to stop lies and indoctrination and the harm caused by them. If that goes away, there is no movement, no reason for the label. And we’d all be fine with that.

    The second one has some grammar problem. I’m not sure what is intended. I don’t accept the test or that Yeshua did anything with it, so it’s kind of moot.

    The third one though. I didn’t realize that “the 5000” were the only ones who passed the test. I thought they were the ones between the life of Yeshua and a few centuries later. I need to review, but I thought you talked about Constantine’s time? Then, once that got canonized, I thought the test now existed as something any average person could hear about and take.

    Maybe I heard it that way since that’s closer to the standard Christian story. My question is; why would Yeshua choose to do it that way? Why only “pass” 5,000?

    #332563
    @foodofthe5000
    Participant

    @lausten Sorry again for taking so long to reply.  I realized something as I sat down write in this forum tonight.  One of the main reasons it takes so long for me to post in this forum is because it’s one of my vary favorite things to do.  I enjoy it so much,  it gets put on the back burner while I discipline myself to attend to all the ‘critical’ things going on with tending to my family’s needs.  You mentioned in a recent post that your family is also having some trials of some kind these days.  I hope things are improving for you all.

    Didn’t see this coming. The first sentence is one that every atheist wishes all Christians would say. Atheism is “anti” by definition. We organize to stop lies and indoctrination and the harm caused by them. If that goes away, there is no movement, no reason for the label. And we’d all be fine with that.

    Merry Christmas!

    The second one has some grammar problem. I’m not sure what is intended. I don’t accept the test or that Yeshua did anything with it, so it’s kind of moot.

    I would love to be able to hire an editor to sit down with me and go over every sentence in The 5000 to be sure I am writing what I mean to be writing.  I am not a very skilled writer.  I am trying to express some ideas that are a bit out of the box, or at least, I haven’t run into them before.

    Regarding “Who Yeshua decides to pass the Thomas Test for is his call.”  It is Yeshua who passed the “Thomas Test” test for Thomas and The 5000.  He personally, while in a physical form, proved for them whatever they needed to be able to believe that he, Yeshua, was their ‘Lord and God’.  Yeshua has not passed that test for me.  He would have to be present with me in a physical form.

    I hypothesize that The 5000 (if they actually existed as real historical people on planet earth) were all contemporaries of Yeshua. I use to the Council of Nicea as the benchmark for how long the testimony of The 5000 would have needed to be passed down.  Since I profess the same creed, I use that written record as my benchmark.

    Maybe I heard it that way since that’s closer to the standard Christian story. My question is; why would Yeshua choose to do it that way? Why only “pass” 5,000?

    Hopefully, I have now clarified that Yeshua did not make anyone pass the Thomas Test.  My hypothesis is that Yeshua chose to pass the Thomas Test for about 5000 people while he was physically on the planet.  Whether or not he has passed the Thomas Test with anyone since the reported Ascension is not addressed by me in The Food of The 5000.

    I will stop here to keep this somewhat manageable.  I would be happy to discuss the question of why Yeshua would choose to pass the Thomas Test for only 5000 people if you would like.

    Thanks again Lausten for persevering through my amateurish writing.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by SethWT. Reason: typo "down" not "do"
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by SethWT. Reason: typo "down" not "do"
    #332567
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    It seems you are using “Yeshua passed the test for X” when I would say, “Yeshua gave them a passing mark on the test”. Either way, as I said last time, it’s moot. I don’t think there is a test, or a test was ever done, or it mattered if there was. At best, it was a person who believed they were a god and they came up with a test to see if others believed him.

    I don’t think it will matter why you think he did it this way. The effect on Christianity seems worse doesn’t it? Paul’s idea was that you accepted Christ in your heart. This opened up the religion to all sorts of converts.

    #332582
    @foodofthe5000
    Participant

    @lausten

    Yes. I agree that if Yeshua is not my Lord and my God then the whole idea of a Thomas Test is moot.

    Thanks for helping me to examine my belief.  I appears much clearer to me that the depth of my willingness to consider that something impossible can be transformed into something possible, not merely something that was thought to be impossible becoming observable, may be less common that I thought.  It seems that you are telling me “I won’t go there with you Seth.  The impossible is just impossible.”  It reminds me of Seth Andrews telling me “When a defense includes, “If the story is true,” we must plant a flag and camp there until the truth question is satisfactorily resolved. Otherwise, we’re building our narrative on a hunch.”  Perhaps I stray too far into the mist?

     

    #333853
    @stevenazt
    Participant

    love this thread and the many ideas so well formulated. Conversations with the greatest respect and consideration for each other.  Makes me think there is something more ( no, only joking)

    #334035
    @foodofthe5000
    Participant

    @stevenazt Thank you for your kind comment.  I am a convert to Roman Catholicism. While I have not always been an adherent to a religion, I have always had a fascination, a love really, of that which is paradoxical and mystic.  So, I am particularly grateful to the CFI community for the civil yet unbridled candor they have shown me.  The bottom line for me, personally, is that while I experience a deep beauty and joy in the paradoxical and mystic, I also recognize that, as Stevie Wonder sang,

    “When you believe in things that you don’t understand,

    Then you suffer,

    Superstition ain’t the way”.

    Too many millions of humans and other creatures here on our Earth have suffered at the alter of superstition. CFI helps me strip away superstition.  CFI is kind of like an ocean cleaning station for me. I do my best to see to it that it remains a symbiotic relationship.  If that has been your experience, I am very pleased.

    #334043

    I’m confused, was the “Thomas Test” about putting one’s finger into Jesus or was it for checking his hip flexion contractures?

    #334182
    @timb
    Participant

    I have not monitored this thread for awhile.  I did just read the 5000 article.

    I say that if JRR Tolkien had presented The Silmarillion and all of his writings about Middle Earth as ancient historical documents passed on to the present by the kindness of the Elves, then we would have “evidence” of tens of thousands of ancient (albeit, actually, fictional) peoples who we could have “true” relationships with in helping us establish faith in the stories of Man’s eventual ascendancy and the decline of the other races of civilized beings.

    #334523
    @foodofthe5000
    Participant

    @citizenschallengev3  Neither. I feel a detailed analysis of the text, taking into account the Aramaic pronunciation of what was written in Greek as “my side” strongly suggests that Yeshua suspected he was suffering from Psoas Syndrome. It is a bit more rare than a hip flexion contracture. It seams reasonable to conclude that Yeshua,  still a bit woosey from the resurrection, had mistaken Thomas for Luke.  Crucifixion is hell on your lower back.

    #334530
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    I have not monitored this thread for awhile. — Timb

    It has had many long pauses, but still lives on.

    Not sure where it’s at now. I’ve pretty much found all Seth’s arguments unacceptable, and he kind of finds that okay, I guess, but then comes up with Psoas Syndrome. Whenever I hear something like “Aramaic pronunciation”, red flags go up all over. Unless there is a lot of scholarly work behind that, it might as well be numerology.

    #334541
    @foodofthe5000
    Participant

    @lausten

    This is just a bit of levity. Sorry if it’s become too obtuse. @citizenschallengev3 made a joke that referred to the fact that there is a technique called a “Thomas Test ” that is used by physical therapist to diagnose hip contractures and psoas syndrome. I couldn’t help myself from playing along.

    For the record, everything I wrote about Aramaic pronunciation, Luke, Thomas, or Yeshua is it just a a joke. When I first read his comment I thought it was just sarcasm, but I sat on it for a couple of days and then I realized he had just Googled the Thomas test. I did that years ago and had forgotten about it being a physical therapy evaluation technique.

    I hope this is all taken in good fun.

    #334615
    @foodofthe5000
    Participant

    @citizenschallengev3  Neither. I feel a detailed analysis of the text, taking into account the Aramaic pronunciation of what was written in Greek as “my side” strongly suggests that Yeshua suspected he was suffering from Psoas Syndrome. It is a bit more rare than a hip flexion contracture. It seams reasonable to conclude that Yeshua,  still a bit woosey from the resurrection, had mistaken Thomas for Luke.  Crucifixion is hell on your lower back.

    This is just a quick reply to my own comment. I would like to add an addendum to the original but the time has passed within which I am able to edit it. I won’t delete it because I don’t want to damage the integrity of the forum.  Whatever I post I post.  This is the first forum I have seriously participated in so I won’t say that I will never delete a post I make in a forum, but I have no intention of deleting any from this forum and I have not to this date.

    I just want to clarify that this post is, in it’s entirety, a bit of attempted humor on my part. None of the speculation or “claims” I made in it are serious at all.  It is a joke. The subtext is that, if you do an internet search on “Thomas Test” you will find that it is a physical evaluation used by physical therapists to diagnose hip contractures and/or psoas syndrome.  I knew this when I wrote The Food of The 5000, but I thought it was a pretty obscure fact and I had forgotten about it.

    I honestly don’t know if @citizenschallengev3 was being sarcastic to ridicule me or just having some fun word play with me – or both.  Regardless, I chose to take it as good fun and to play along.  I was grateful that someone had taken the time to search the “Thomas Test” and that they were engaging with the forum at all.

    I also believe it is healthy to be able to laugh at one’s own religion.  Especially Roman Catholicism.  Although the RC Church demands the full application of the human reasoning ability of her members, she is also, paradoxically, very mystic.  So, I mean really, there’s gonna be tons of material for good and bad jokes in that!

    #334617
    @foodofthe5000
    Participant

     

    I have not monitored this thread for awhile.  I did just read the 5000 article.


    @timb
    sincere thanks for committing your time to reading The 5000!

    I say that if JRR Tolkien had presented The Silmarillion and all of his writings about Middle Earth as ancient historical documents passed on to the present by the kindness of the Elves, then we would have “evidence” of tens of thousands of ancient (albeit, actually, fictional) peoples who we could have “true” relationships with in helping us establish faith in the stories of Man’s eventual ascendancy and the decline of the other races of civilized beings.

    I will rephrase what I think you are saying so you can confirm if I understand your point as you intend.  I am learning a lot by participating in this forum (especially under the indulgent tutelage of @lausten). Please be aware that my objective is not to change your mind.  My objective is to change my mind if I gain a fuller understanding of the truth about my ideas.  So, I will not be debating in a typical style, ie. I will not be defending my positions as much as trying to completely understand your position and trying to adopt it.  If I can’t adopt it I will do my best to explain why – but I am not trying to convince you when I do that.  When I discourse, I try my best to detach myself from any desire to change your mind.  I hope you will be ok with that.  It is a bit selfish on my part.  So, with that disclosure…,

    First, you totally got my attention with a Tolkien analogy.  I’m a lifelong fan.  When I was in junior high school, using the appendix in the Silmarillion, I learned to write love letters in Elvish to my girlfriend.  It drove her father nuts.  If I understand you correctly, you are referring to when I wrote in the conclusion of The 5000, “I have a relational trust in The 5000”.  So I am going to assume that you understand I believe that this trust is operating at a level beyond, not beneath, my ability to reason.  That is, I have used all the faculties of my reason and I am choosing to believe the claims of The 5000 even though I have no more evidence upon which to base my continued belief. That being said, your point is that these 5000 people I have come up with are fictitious and therefore no more helpful in confirming my belief in the bodily resurrection of Yeshua than Tolkien’s Elves are helpful to confirm that “the stories of Man’s eventual ascendancy and the decline of the other races of civilized beings” in the Silmarillion are true.

    Do I understand you correctly? Have I missed anything?

     

    #334625
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    A simple (just kidding) right after you made the joke would have saved a lot of typing

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