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Please Help Me Continue to Examine Why I Believe Jesus Rose Bodily from the Dead


Forums Forums Religion and Secularism Please Help Me Continue to Examine Why I Believe Jesus Rose Bodily from the Dead

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 241 total)
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  • #317595
    @davidleon
    Participant

    Except the evidence for all those people is very weak

    In order to come to that conclusion one would have to evaluate all of the evidence of all of those people so I’m assuming that you are stating an uninformed opinion. If the evidence has been compiled by science, which of course it hasn’t, it should be kept in mind that science is a method of investigation not a believe system. So called evidence then, would logically be conjectural. Speculative. Evidence is a term often misapplied. You can find evidence for or against anything.

    #317596
    @davidleon
    Participant

    But the real reason you believe is because you want to.  No evidence convinced you it was true, no evidence will convince you it’s not.  Religious belief is 100% choice with some mental conditioning guiding it a bit.

    I think that the real reason any of us believe in anything is because we want to. It’s something we have to guard ourselves against. That isn’t to say that evidence doesn’t play a part in it if what we want to believe is the truth as best as we can determine based upon evidence. To me religion is a strict adherence to a specific set of principles, ideology etc. It is intrinsically a paradigm of one’s choice. Political, scientific, social, economic, or religious.

    #317599
    @davidleon
    Participant

    Question 1: Was Jesus actually dead when he was “entombed”?

    Yes.

    Question 2: If Jesus was dead, in what physical condition do you imagine would any human rise from the dead after three days?  Any period longer than 15 minutes, will cause the brain to die from oxygen starvation and rigor mortis of the body to set in and begin the process of cell disintergration.

    If he could be resurrected at all that would make Jesus a zombie. That’s a medical fact.

    What supernatural miracles must we add to avoid the conclusion that Jesus was either not dead to begin with or if he was dead, he could not have been resurrected?

    Jesus existed in heaven as a spirit, Michael, prior to coming to earth as a man. He gave his body as a ransom sacrifice, once and for all time. That body was taken away by the angels who were near the tomb afterwards. So, when he appeared again to his disciples some of them mistook him for a gardener, like would be taking care of the area.

    Also I would clarify that, medically speaking, a zombie is someone who has been drugged to appear dead, their vital signs undetectable by primitive standards, in order for them to be buried alive. Upon escaping the rudimentary burial they “are raised from the dead” and appear lethargic et cetera.

     

    Question 3: If Jesus was resurrected, where did he go? Did anyone ever see Jesus again after the resurrection?

    Upon death his body was entombed. His spirit went temporarily to the abyss.

    By the way, I should say that I post under the assumption that we all are familiar with the Bible and so I give no scriptural references but will gladly supply those references upon request if what I say is questioned as being unsupported by scripture.

     

    #317600
    @davidleon
    Participant

    @Mriana

    Easter is set by the moon (lunar date) and I can explain that more in detail too. However, that is just one example as to how bishops, deacons, priests, ministers, passively admit to modern day religion being related the Solar mythology. And to be honest, the way Easter is dated every year, via the moon, is right there in the Episcopal Book of Worship. Yes, lunar is part of the mythology too.

    Easter, however, is a pagan holiday adopted much later by the apostate church. The same as Christmas. Jesus wasn’t born on or near the winter solstice. I think it important to make the distinction between the Bible and pagan influenced doctrine. The immortal soul, trinity, cross, hell, Christmas and Easter, for example.

    #317602
    @lausten
    Keymaster

     I’m assuming that you are stating an uninformed opinion.

    #317604
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    He left it up to mankind to decide.

    Then we are better than God.

    #317605
    @davidleon
    Participant

    @Lausten

    Then we are better than God.

    If he left it up to us the logical conclusion would be that he is better than us or the capacity for him to have done so wouldn’t have been the case. Anyway, it’s subjective, isn’t it? If you had been a slave owner your opinion of slavery would be favorable, and if not then you certainly had that choice. That we currently, for the most part, ideally have a uniform disliking of slavery then the entire issue remains our choice.

    #317609
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    Anyway, it’s subjective, isn’t it?

    No. Slavery is objectively wrong.

    Already having to excuse slavery. Pretty weak position.

    if not then you certainly had that choice

    Had what choice? It’s called slavery because you aren’t choosing it.

    #317610
    @davidleon
    Participant

    @Lausten

    No. Slavery is objectively wrong.

    Already having to excuse slavery. Pretty weak position.

    If it were objectively wrong we wouldn’t be having this discussion. The slave owners and many of the slaves certainly wouldn’t have said it was objectively wrong. Also, I don’t excuse slavery I acknowledge it. I don’t condone it.

    Had what choice? It’s called slavery because you aren’t choosing it.

    The choice I was referring to was owning slaves. Also, in the Bible slaves often chose to be so due to, for example, debt or prisoners of war.

    #317612
    @davidleon
    Participant

    @Lausten

    My statement regarding your uninformed opinion was an admittedly subtle one. You can’t have evaluated all of the evidence of the people in question so couldn’t realistically have made an informed opinion. You may have evaluated the evidence presented by Richard Carrier but he doesn’t speak for everyone. So I took your statement to be a matter of opinion, and it had to have been uninformed regarding the evidence in question.

    #317614
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    The slave owners and many of the slaves certainly wouldn’t have said it was objectively wrong.

    If that is how you determine what is right or wrong, then those words lose their meaning.

    #317615
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    You can’t have evaluated all of the evidence of the people in question so couldn’t realistically have made an informed opinion.

    Again, you define words out of existence. OTHJ is the most up to date and complete evaluation of the evidence for the historicity of Jesus. Refute that statement or refute anything in the book, but don’t say that it’s impossible to have an opinion without some standard that you made up, but won’t even enumerate.

    #317616
    @davidleon
    Participant

    @Lausten

    If that is how you determine what is right or wrong, then those words lose their meaning.

    How so? If God isn’t the source of determining what is objectively wrong or right, or if he has allegedly left it up to man then either way mankind i.e. society decides. At one time society decided it was right. Now they have decided it is wrong. So who is at fault?

    You, I assume, as well as myself, thinks slavery is abhorrent. That’s subjective. Society at one time didn’t but now do. That, too, is subjective.

    The term objectively wrong doesn’t sit well with me personally. By definition it is “(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.” And so, well, that in itself is problematic, especially in the discussion of societal mores, primitive or current.

    #317618
    @davidleon
    Participant

    @Lausten

    Again, you define words out of existence. OTHJ is the most up to date and complete evaluation of the evidence for the historicity of Jesus. Refute that statement or refute anything in the book, but don’t say that it’s impossible to have an opinion without some standard that you made up, but won’t even enumerate.

    Let’s clarify some things. I responded to your statement “Except the evidence for all those people is very weak.” I haven’t commented on OTHJ and am not particularly interested in doing so unless you introduce a thread with excerpts from that work.

    So, in conclusion, you have no real way of establishing the evidence of all those people having been very weak. I could be wrong and you could demonstrate that, but you haven’t so far. It’s your opinion. Uninformed. I don’t think Carrier will be of much help, but again, I could be wrong. Show me.

    #317619
    @lausten
    Keymaster

    Society at one time didn’t but now do. That, too, is subjective.

    Who is this society you speak of and how did they decide what is right? There are places where slavery is practiced now, that doesn’t make it right. There were times it was practiced, that doesn’t make it right then. Were the slaves part of this “society”. I’m sure lots of them knew it was wrong.

    We, either individually or as a group, decide what is right and wrong by getting better at deciding what is right and wrong.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 241 total)
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