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Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences


Forums Forums Philosophy Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 52 total)
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  • #333380
    @steveklinko
    Participant

    OK,  we have some “hard facts”  Exposure to red wavelengths does in fact produce the experience of seeing “red”.

    1) It is also “hard fact”, neurons in the brain do fire with a “red” input. This has been confirmed and is no longer a “hard problem’.

    2) It is a “hard problem” of an emotional response to the neurons processing the “red data” and responding with a chemical that produces a “red” experience from memory, not much different than responding emotionally to chemicals which produce an “angry” emotional response.

    No one says 1 is a Hard Problem it has always been referred to as the Easy Problem.

    What do you mean when you say a Chemical produces a “red” experience or an “angry” emotional response?

    Not at all. Tegmark posits that we have all the information necessary to explain all of these phenomena and there is no “additional” ingredient necessary to explain how it works.  This is a relatively new science due to the fact that only recently have we been able to ‘look” at micro-level biochemical behaviors and the neural responses that may be triggered by biochemical processes.

    So then what is the Explanation of How it works?

    Yes it does, we know it does, it’s a hard fact. We just haven’t figured out the how yet. But that does not make it necessary to introduce a mystical aspect to macro quantum functions and potential emotional responses to “informational data” emerging from an ever greater complexity in the neural network and the ability to experience sensory input in specific ways conducive to survival.

    That’s always the Hard Problem for any theory of Consciousness. Go ahead and figure out How, then you will Have something.

    #333397
    @widdershins
    Participant

    @write4u I’m sorry, but I have to ask; Are you a robot from the future?  Have a big database of things in your head just waiting to come out, do you?  Your posts are always so informative and full of information that I can follow just about half your thought.  Seriously though, I love when you go all science-ninja in a thread.  I learn something on the days I’m not too lazy.

    #333401
    @3point14rat
    Participant

    @write4u, your posts are what I was talking about when I said, “That’s not to say there aren’t a ton of legitimate concepts that are way over my head…”.

    I wish I understood all of what you’re saying, but I don’t have a foundation to work with. It is cool to read though.

    #333504
    @write4u
    Participant

    Steve Klinko said: “What do you mean when you say a Chemical produces a “red” experience or an “angry” emotional response?”

    It is a function of the Mirror Neural System (MNS). It produces chemical experiential reactions upon viewing something. Look it up.

    Have I mentioned this excellent video yet. It bears repetitive viewing. This is really cool stuff.

     

    #333508
    @steveklinko
    Participant

    @write4u
    It is a function of the Mirror Neural System (MNS). It produces chemical experiential reactions upon viewing something. Look it up.

    The Mirror System is just Neurons firing. What Chemical Experiential Reactions are you referring to. Are you saying that a Neuron Firing is a Chemical Experiential Reaction? And how does a Chemical Experiential Reaction produce things like the Redness of Red, the Sound of the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, and etc.

     

    #333500
    @write4u
    Participant

    Thanks for all those kind words.

    I am really not that well schooled. But I usually know where to look for information and that saves years of study…. 🙂

    I do a lot of reading and research on the net, then try to find “common denominators”, which are shared by objects and organisms with similar shared properties. And I take the liberty to quote (with credit) what I consider as pertinent to my argument. IOW, I try to let true experts do the talking for me.  My contribution is to try and tie various seemingly unconnected phenomena together in a logical argument.

    For instance; microtubules are a “common denominator” of ALL Eukaryotic organisms. And microtubules are instrumental in a host of fundamental homeostatic functions in all living organisms.

    Homeostasis,
    In biology, homeostasis is the state of steady internal, physical, and chemical conditions maintained by living systems.[1] This is the condition of optimal functioning for the organism and includes many variables, such as body temperature and fluid balance, being kept within certain pre-set limits (homeostatic range).

    One of those regulators is the microtubule, an amazing self-organizing dynamical nano-scale information processing system which may be found by the trillions in say, a human organism….. 🙂

    Microtubules are polymers of tubulin that form part of the cytoskeleton and provide structure and shape to eukaryotic cells. Microtubules can grow as long as 50 micrometres and are highly dynamic. The outer diameter of a microtubule is between 23 and 27 nm[2] while the inner diameter is between 11 and 15 nm.[3] They are formed by the polymerization of a dimer of two globular proteins, alpha and beta tubulin into protofilaments that can then associate laterally to form a hollow tube, the microtubule.[4] The most common form of a microtubule consists of 13 protofilaments in the tubular arrangement.

    Microtubules are one of the cytoskeletal filament systems in eukaryotic cells. The microtubule cytoskeleton is involved in the transport of material within cells, carried out by motor proteins that move on the surface of the microtubule.
    Microtubules are very important in a number of cellular processes. They are involved in maintaining the structure of the cell and, together with microfilaments and intermediate filaments, they form the cytoskeleton. They also make up the internal structure of cilia and flagella. They provide platforms for intracellular transport and are involved in a variety of cellular processes, including the movement of secretory vesicles, organelles, and intracellular macromolecular assemblies (see entries for dynein and kinesin).[5] They are also involved in cell division (by mitosis and meiosis) and are the major constituents of mitotic spindles, which are used to pull eukaryotic chromosomes apart.

    Microtubules are nucleated and organized by microtubule organizing centers (MTOCs), such as the centrosome found in the center of many animal cells or the basal bodies found in cilia and flagella, or the spindle pole bodies found in most fungi.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule

    p.s. MT provide the copying mechanism of mitosis (cell division).  Think about implication of that natural function. It is essential in the formation and maintenance of several shared  fundamental properties of living systems!

    General Properties of Living Systems
    The most outstanding general features that have arisen during life’s history include chemical uniqueness; complexity and hierarchical organization; reproduction (heredity and variation); possession of a genetic program; metabolism; development; and environmental interaction.

    https://biocyclopedia.com/index/general_zoology/general_properties_of_living_systems.php

    My latest question is:  “Does Chaos Theory prove the mathematical nature of the Universe.”

    Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary theory stating that, within the apparent randomness of chaotic complex systems, there are underlying patterns, interconnectedness, constant feedback loops, repetition, self-similarity, fractals, and self-organization.[3] The butterfly effect, an underlying principle of chaos, describes how a small change in one state of a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large differences in a later state (meaning that there is sensitive dependence on initial conditions).[4] A metaphor for this behavior is that a butterfly flapping its wings in China can cause a hurricane in Texas.[5]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

    IMO, this definition of Chaos Theory suggest a mathematical self-organizing equation and function in a dynamic medium (the early Universe), creating those mathematical patterns from a disordered state, including the exponential function.

    a…. Mathematical Universe…?

    #333523
    @widdershins
    Participant

    I am really not that well schooled. But I usually know where to look for information…

    I’m not hearing that it’s not an internal database from the future, though…

    #333672
    @write4u
    Participant

    steveklinko said; The Mirror System is just Neurons firing. What Chemical Experiential Reactions are you referring to. Are you saying that a Neuron Firing is a Chemical Experiential Reaction?

    Yes indeed. Basically they are very old survival mechanisms (pheromones, adrenalin, ), triggering fight or flight responsess, which later evolved in complexity and sensitivity to illicit actual emotional reactions to many chemical responses in the mirror neural system.  That is the essence of “empathic” response.

    Do you whince when you see someone hurt themselves badly?  Do you salivate when you see someone else eat a tasty morsel? Do you yawn when you see other people yawn? Do you cry when you see a baby seal being clubbed to death? Do you feel a special connection to someone when you share a profound intimate moment. These empathic responses are due to the observation and association with prior stored (coded) emotional memory.

    And how does a Chemical Experiential Reaction produce things like the Redness of Red, the Sound of the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, and etc.

    But apart from the wave function these things are not physical objects, they are emotional abstract experiences generated by the neural network and interpreted by the autonomous mind.

    IMO, this is a really important posit by Anil Seth;

    “We generate our (experiential) reality as much from the inside out as from the outside in”.

    this, of course, is due to the fact that the brain is basically an autonomous agent, which relies on sensory inputs for it to be able to function and process data about self and relation to the environment.  Descartes’ “brain in a vat” is a perfect example of the brain’s dependence on “sensory stimulus”.

    Too long in a sensory deprivation chamber first makes you hallucinate and finally drives the mind into madness.

    “Our brains can only make best guesses of what is out there.”  Every thought we have is a product of abstract emotional experiences derived from electro-chemical neural stimulation and their meaning as compared to stored memory from prior experiences

    A perfect example can be found in the Circadian rhythm

    Circadian rhythm

    A circadian rhythm is a natural, internal process that regulates the sleep-wake cycle and repeats roughly every 24 hours.[1] It can refer to any biological process that displays an endogenous, entrainable oscillation of about 24 hours. These 24-hour rhythms are driven by a circadian clock, and they have been widely observed in plants, animals, fungi, and cyanobacteria.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm

    Amazingly, this experience of “time” is already present in the lowly slime-mold, which can be trained to respond to specific “intervals” of time. But slime molds have no neurons or brains. It seems then that the organism as a whole has a form of physical memory, which responds to “repettitive intervals”.  https://www.quantamagazine.org/slime-molds-remember-but-do-they-learn-20180709/

    Similar to a Sunflower’s physical response (no eyes) to the sun’s position (heliotropism). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliotropism

    All these behaviors are triggered by the processing of internal and external sensory stimuli.

    IMO, this gradual sophistication in sensory awareness and “information” processing, from single celled organisms to complex celled organisms, is the  history of the evolutionary hierarchy of “consciousness” in biological organisms.

    #333711
    @steveklinko
    Participant

    And how does a Chemical Experiential Reaction produce things like the Redness of Red, the Sound of the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, and etc.

    But apart from the wave function these things are not physical objects, they are emotional abstract experiences generated by the neural network and interpreted by the autonomous mind.

    IMO, this is a really important posit by Anil Seth;

    Yes we know these things are not Physical objects. So what are they? They exist only in the Mind. They exist is some sort of Conscious Space. This needs to be Explained.

     

     

     

    #333801
    @write4u
    Participant

    steveklinko said: Yes we know these things are not Physical objects. So what are they? They exist only in the Mind. They exist is some sort of Conscious Space. This needs to be Explained.

    Yes, that’s the hard problem.  This is what Tegmark identifies as the “emergent” property of conscious awareness and experience. Perhaps somewhat similar to a holographic illusion.   Anil Seth calls it a “controlled hallucination” based on a prior expectation by the brain.

     

    #333808
    @steveklinko
    Participant

    Yes, that’s the hard problem.  This is what Tegmark identifies as the “emergent” property of conscious awareness and experience. Perhaps somewhat similar to a holographic illusion.   Anil Seth calls it a “controlled hallucination” based on a prior expectation by the brain.

    Ok good. I thought you were saying there is no Hard Problem of Consciousness. Discovering exactly what this Emergent Property is, or what this Controlled Hallucination is, will be the work that must be undertaken.

     

    #334008
    @write4u
    Participant

    steveklinko said; Ok good. I thought you were saying there is no Hard Problem of Consciousness. Discovering exactly what this Emergent Property is, or what this Controlled Hallucination is, will be the work that must be undertaken.

    I mentioned an emergent holographic experience. If you believe this is a mysterious phenomonon, you can make a holographic projector from the clear cover of a CD case.

    Now imagine this happening inside your brain.  You do not really “see” it, you are not looking at it. It is your brain experiencing the electro-chemical stream feeding the image as if we are looking into a mirror and see our abstract reflection. In this case the mirror is located inside our brain’s memory banks and “triggered” by the electro -chemical stimulus.

    The thing is that the brain never “sees” anything at all, the eyes do, but translate all images into electro-chemical signals (similar to a computer’s binary digital translation), which are then retranslated by the brain as a “visual experience”.

    IMO, the hologram is the best analogy. A hologram has no substance, and may be experienced by the brain as a small emergent internal experiential mirage……

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by Write4U.
    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by Write4U.
    #334042
    @steveklinko
    Participant

    I mentioned an emergent holographic experience. If you believe this is a mysterious phenomonon, you can make a holographic projector from the clear cover of a CD case.

    Now imagine this happening inside your brain.  You do not really “see” it, you are not looking at it. It is your brain experiencing the electro-chemical stream feeding the image as if we are looking into a mirror and see our abstract reflection. In this case the mirror is located inside our brain’s memory banks and “triggered” by the electro -chemical stimulus.

    The thing is that the brain never “sees” anything at all, the eyes do, but translate all images into electro-chemical signals (similar to a computer’s binary digital translation), which are then retranslated by the brain as a “visual experience”.

    IMO, the hologram is the best analogy. A hologram has no substance, and may be experienced by the brain as a small emergent internal experiential mirage……

     

    Optical effects are interesting. But I would say that neither the Eyes, nor the Brain can See anything. It is the Conscious Mind that Sees. The Eyes are the Front End sensors and Processing stages. The Brain is strictly a further Processing stage. The Conscious Mind is the Final Processing stage. Your Mind Experiences the Conscious Light Scene.

    #334116

    @write4u    I am really not that well schooled. But I usually know where to look for information and that saves years of study….

    Well played !

    #333672 was very cool.  But I’m supposed to be working on Hoffman this morning.  I’m so undisciplined.  🙁

    ———–

    @steveklinko     Discovering exactly what this Emergent Property is, or what this Controlled Hallucination is, will be the work that must be undertaken.

    What do you think we should learn from it?

    What difference (do you think) will defining that final link between neural impulse and Mindscape make, once we crack that puzzle?

    #334117
    @steveklinko
    Participant

    @citizenschallengev3What do you think we should learn from it?

    What difference (do you think) will defining that final link between neural impulse and Mindscape make, once we crack that puzzle?

    We will learn how to make Conscious Computers and possibly understand how to communicate with other Galaxies across the Universe. But probably most important we may learn something about what we are in the Universe. This could answer the question as to if Consciousness can survive Death. It will give birth to a whole new Epoch in Human understanding.

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