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Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences


Forums Forums Philosophy Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 52 total)
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  • #334603
    @sree
    Participant

    Optical effects are interesting. But I would say that neither the Eyes, nor the Brain can See anything. It is the Conscious Mind that Sees. The Eyes are the Front End sensors and Processing stages. The Brain is strictly a further Processing stage. The Conscious Mind is the Final Processing stage. Your Mind Experiences the Conscious Light Scene.

    If you can read this, then you are the Conscious Mind that Sees this. How you (i.e. the Conscious Mind) are connected to the Brain and the Eyes with regard to Optical effects is pure conjecture. The Conscious Mind Experience is not limited to the Conscious Light Scene but encompasses the entire field of Conscious Experience of touch, taste, sound, and smell also. Why does the Conscious Mind inquire into the nature of Conscious Experiences?

    #334624
    @steveklinko
    Blocked

    @sree If you can read this, then you are the Conscious Mind that Sees this. How you (i.e. the Conscious Mind) are connected to the Brain and the Eyes with regard to Optical effects is pure conjecture. The Conscious Mind Experience is not limited to the Conscious Light Scene but encompasses the entire field of Conscious Experience of touch, taste, sound, and smell also. Why does the Conscious Mind inquire into the nature of Conscious Experiences?

    Because the Conscious Mind (at least mine) wants to know everything. No one can know everything, but we do the best we can do.

     

    #334639
    @sree
    Participant

    Because the Conscious Mind (at least mine) wants to know everything. No one can know everything, but we do the best we can do.

    We are in agreement about the definition of the Conscious Mind, that it is a field of sensory perception in terms of sight, hearing, taste, touch, and smell. “Wanting to know” is something else. It is a reaction, a response to the field of perception. Apparently, the Conscious Mind is not just a passive field of sensory perception. There is a “wanting to know”. How does this arise and what causes this?

    #334677
    @steveklinko
    Blocked

    We are in agreement about the definition of the Conscious Mind, that it is a field of sensory perception in terms of sight, hearing, taste, touch, and smell. “Wanting to know” is something else. It is a reaction, a response to the field of perception. Apparently, the Conscious Mind is not just a passive field of sensory perception. There is a “wanting to know”. How does this arise and what causes this?

    Good question, and there are many other questions like that. I study Conscious Sensory Perception and especially the Conscious Perception of Light because I can use a Reverse Engineering approach to study it. I can see the path of processing from the Physical Light hitting the Retina to the Processing in the Visual Cortex and then the appearance of an Image on my Conscious Light Screen that is embedded in the front of my face. There is an Explanatory gap however between the processing in the Cortex and the Image that I ultimately See. That Gap is what I am exclusively studying. I believe that when this Explanatory Gap for Visual Experience is understood then all the other Sensory Experiences will be understood. I think that this will open the door to an understanding of what the Experiencer itself is and then to what is something like “Wanting to Know”. I think “Wanting to Know” is a more Abstract aspect of Consciousness than Sensory Perception. I think people should pick an aspect of Consciousness and concentrate on it exclusively rather than jumping around between all the different aspects of Consciousness.

     

    #334720

    @steveklinko  –  September 6, 2020 at 1:05 pm

    @citizenschallengev3
    : “What do you think we should learn from it?”

    What difference (do you think) will defining that final link between neural impulse and Mindscape make, once we crack that puzzle?

    ~~~

    We will learn how to make Conscious Computers and possibly understand how to communicate with other Galaxies across the Universe. But probably most important we may learn something about what we are in the Universe. This could answer the question as to if Consciousness can survive Death. It will give birth to a whole new Epoch in Human understanding.

    But probably most important we may learn something about what we are in the Universe.

    I’m left mystified by such questions, we can see what we are in the Universe, incredibly special in some ways, outrageously stupid and selfish in others, and overall in the grand scheme of things a flash in the pan.

    By what right do we expect ourselves to be something more special than that?

     

    As for consciousness – how in the universe, could a Consciousness that is formed of our flesh and blood and experiences and the brain’s interaction with physical reality, continue once’s that body that did all the hard receiving and processing dies and goes away?

    It’

    #334734
    @sree
    Participant

    As for consciousness – how in the universe, could a Consciousness that is formed of our flesh and blood and experiences and the brain’s interaction with physical reality, continue once’s that body that did all the hard receiving and processing dies and goes away?

    Your inquiry is conditioned by the premise that Consciousness “is formed of our flesh and blood”. Ask yourself this question: Which comes first? The brain or Consciousness? Does the brain come upon the Conscious Mind and deduce that the latter is its product? Or is it the other way round: the Conscious Mind perceives the brain and concludes that the latter is its creator?

    It is obvious to any reasonable inquirer that the brain is an organ not different from the lungs or heart and incapable of making claims about anything. Therefore, it is the Conscious Mind that asserts that the brain is its creator. Isn’t this laughable when the Conscious Mind rejects all creationist ideology?

    #334748
    @steveklinko
    Blocked

    But probably most important we may learn something about what we are in the Universe.
    I’m left mystified by such questions, we can see what we are in the Universe, incredibly special in some ways, outrageously stupid and selfish in others, and overall in the grand scheme of things a flash in the pan.
    By what right do we expect ourselves to be something more special than that?

    As for consciousness – how in the universe, could a Consciousness that is formed of our flesh and blood and experiences and the brain’s interaction with physical reality, continue once’s that body that did all the hard receiving and processing dies and goes away?

    We have only begun to see what we are in the Universe. You are Naïve to think you know what we are. You are expressing a Physicalist view of the Mind, when you say there is nothing but the Flesh and the Blood. There are other views of this that describe a parallel development of Brain in Physical Space and Mind in Conscious Space and where a Connection is developed between the Conscious Mind and the Physical Mind. With the Conscious Mind not even being located in Physical Space it is easy to imagine it surviving in Conscious Space when the Physical Brain goes away. Of course this is Speculation but it is just as good a Speculation as your “Dead Brain means Dead Mind” speculation.

     

    #334771
    @sree
    Participant

    With the Conscious Mind not even being located in Physical Space it is easy to imagine it surviving in Conscious Space when the Physical Brain goes away.

    Precisely. Consciousness has no physical qualities and, therefore, cannot exist in the realm of Physical Space where the Physical Brain resides. Physical Space is within the field of Conscious Experience and not the other way round.

    Classical scientific concepts of Physical Space are being questioned by theoretical physicists today because those “scientific truths” are inconsistent with Conscious Experience of experimental observations.  Therefore, the Speculation of survival of the Conscious Mind in Conscious Space when the Physical Brain goes away merits studying.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Sree.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Sree.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Sree.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Sree.
    #334849

    Physical Space is within the field of Conscious Experience and not the other way round.

    That’s implying that your conscious experience creates the universe – to me that seems self-centeredness and hubris maximus.

     

    Classical scientific concepts of Physical Space are being questioned by theoretical physicists today because those “scientific truths” are inconsistent with Conscious Experience of experimental observations.

    “Conscious Experience of”  No I think it would be more accurate to point out it’s our conceptions and mathematics are what’s breaking down,

    well that combined with establishing impossible expectations.

     

    Therefore, the Speculation of survival of the Conscious Mind in Conscious Space when the Physical Brain goes away merits studying.

    So  says the sree that constantly casually disregards fundamental geophysical facts of our Earth.

     

    My conviction come from self study, first decades lots of wrestling with the Jesus, then god question, then it got resolved and faded into a non-issue.

    Then it was on to the questions of self, who am I, what am I, what is my purpose, why must I die, what happens to me after I die.

    Our lives are so active and changing, people always coming and going, family & social networks constantly changing, my body constantly changing and impacting every aspect of my interactions with the world around me – all that opposed to the manmade emotion that I don’t want to die, because I’m terrified of death and hate it, hate it, hate it, it’s bad, I don’t want to die I want to live forever, I must find a way to continue.   (that is the collective “I”)

    All you have is handwaving – in the end there’s nothing to supposed that a light can continue glowing after the filament burns out, because the necessary hardware has been broken.  Pragmatically speaking, since all I know comes through my body and its senses and it’s brain’s processing abilities, ergo once that body is broken and dead, the processing stops, the sense of awareness and memory of necessity also dissolves back into Earth’s biosphere – since we are confined to this Earth and every atom of your body has been recycled countless times, and upon your death they return to Earth.

     

    In the mindscape of your conscious imagination anything is possible – in the pragmatic world of physical reality, (which despite all the religious spiritual protestations, is all we have), you are stuck following Earth’s ways and means.

     

    Had time for a little surfing, quite a bit out there about heaven/hell being a human concept that can be traced through history.  This one seemed rather promising and worth tossing in here.

    Bible scholar Bart Ehrman on why everything you’ve been told about heaven and hell is wrong

    https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2020/03/27/bible-scholar-bart-ehrman/

    By Yonat Shimron | Religion News Service
    · Published: March 27, 2020

    This idea of heaven and hell is really about theodicy, or why God allows evil, right?

    The way it developed historically is that in the oldest texts in our civilization, when people die, there’s no joy or pleasure after death. You get that in Homer and in the Old Testament. Then people began thinking that’s not fair. In pagan religions, it was not a problem because people believed there are good gods and bad gods. If bad things happen to you it’s because of the bad gods. Jews and Christians couldn’t say that because there’s only one God. How do you explain the bad things happening?

    It’s because after this life God will reward the righteous and punish the wicked. It’s all about establishing justice.

    After a couple of centuries, Christians wondered whether it makes sense to torture people in eternity for 25 years of bad living. So it creates still more theodicy problems.

    #334851
    @steveklinko
    Blocked

    CitizensChallengeV3: All you have is handwaving – in the end there’s nothing to supposed that a light can continue glowing after the filament burns out, because the necessary hardware has been broken.  Pragmatically speaking, since all I know comes through my body and its senses and it’s brain’s processing abilities, ergo once that body is broken and dead, the processing stops, the sense of awareness and memory of necessity also dissolves back into Earth’s biosphere – since we are confined to this Earth and every atom of your body has been recycled countless times, and upon your death they return to Earth.

    I know you had a different intention with this paragraph but lets talk about the Perception of Light. Think about the Light that you See. Is the Light you See actually the Filament itself? In my way of understanding Visual Perception the Electromagnetic Physical Light impinges on the Retina and is immediately turned into Neural Impulses that travel to the Cortex. Your Conscious Mind will only See Light when specific Neurons fire. You are never Seeing the Physical Light from the Filament but rather you are Seeing some Surrogate substitution for the Filament Light which Philosophers call the Light Qualia, but which I like to call the Conscious Light because it only exists in our Conscious Minds. There is no Explanation for this Conscious Light that we See. All we know is that Neurons fire and the Conscious Light is Experienced. You can rub your eye and See Lights. You are stimulating Visual Neurons that produce this apparent Light in your Mind. Scientists have been trying to push this Conscious Light Phenomenon back into the Neurons for a hundred years. I just cannot be Explained by the firing of Neurons. No matter how hard you try to Explain it with the Neurons, the Conscious Light refuses to be pushed into the Neurons. The Conscious Light just simply and always just appears on your Visual Conscious Light Screen that is embedded in the front of your face. The Conscious Light is obviously something that might not even bein Physical Space. There is good reason to speculate that there may be a whole different kind of Realm or Conscious Space for Conscious Experiences to exist in. This Conscious Space seems to be something in addition to Physical Space and Physical things. The temptation to think the Conscious Mind might still exist after the Physical Mind (Brain) is gone is not such a huge stretch of the imagination. If Science can someday make the case and actually show how the Conscious Light is in the Neurons the that will be great. But for now Science has not got the first Clue about what this Conscious Light could be and how it comes out of the Neurons and into the Conscious Mind.

     

    #334860
    @sree
    Participant

    The temptation to think the Conscious Mind might still exist after the Physical Mind (Brain) is gone is not such a huge stretch of the imagination. If Science can someday make the case and actually show how the Conscious Light is in the Neurons the that will be great. But for now Science has not got the first Clue about what this Conscious Light could be and how it comes out of the Neurons and into the Conscious Mind.

    You are making a valid argument but @citizenschallengev3 won’t buy it. His refusal to accept your theory is governed by his belief that the Neurons produce Conscious Light even when he cannot cite scientific proof.

    #334884
    @sree
    Participant

    That’s implying that your conscious experience creates the universe – to me that seems self-centeredness and hubris maximus.

    It’s not my consciousness. It’s an impersonal Conscious Experience.

    “Conscious Experience of”  No I think it would be more accurate to point out it’s our conceptions and mathematics are what’s breaking down,

    well that combined with establishing impossible expectations.

    What are you talking about? Our Conscious Experience of Physical Space is being questioned by theoretical physicists. What you see is not what you get. Your conception defines your math. And when this doesn’t jive with Conscious Experience, all your fundamental physical facts of the Earth goes out the window.

    My conviction come from self study, first decades lots of wrestling with the Jesus, then god question, then it got resolved and faded into a non-issue.

    Then it was on to the questions of self, who am I, what am I, what is my purpose, why must I die, what happens to me after I die.

    And where did all that study get you? Nowhere; and the reason is that you believe that you, the Experiencer, are a product of the Neurons in Physical Space and not a phenomenon in Conscious Space.

    Our lives are so active and changing, people always coming and going, family & social networks constantly changing, my body constantly changing and impacting every aspect of my interactions with the world around me – all that opposed to the manmade emotion that I don’t want to die, because I’m terrified of death and hate it, hate it, hate it, it’s bad, I don’t want to die I want to live forever, I must find a way to continue.   (that is the collective “I”)

    As long as you believe that you, the Experiencer, are a product of the Neurons, there is no way to continue. You condemn yourself to annihilation at brain death.

    All you have is handwaving – in the end there’s nothing to supposed that a light can continue glowing after the filament burns out, because the necessary hardware has been broken.  Pragmatically speaking, since all I know comes through my body and its senses and it’s brain’s processing abilities, ergo once that body is broken and dead, the processing stops, the sense of awareness and memory of necessity also dissolves back into Earth’s biosphere – since we are confined to this Earth and every atom of your body has been recycled countless times, and upon your death they return to Earth.

    This is your one true faith, your Dharma. What Klinko has here is nothing more than a theory pointing to a gap in your reasoning. Even Donald Hoffman asserts yet another theory that Conscious Experience is an iconic interface. Putting all your self-worth into a bunch of Neurons is rather weird.

    #334893
    @steveklinko
    Blocked

    @sree You are making a valid argument but @citizenschallengev3 won’t buy it. His refusal to accept your theory is governed by his belief that the Neurons produce Conscious Light even when he cannot cite scientific proof.

    It is a Belief that he has. I suppose he is like most Physicalists, praying for that Revelation from Science that will show how the Conscious Light is in the Neurons. That might happen, but as of this point in time Science has no Clue.

     

    #334901

    Oh yeah, love hearing folks who believe Climate Science is a fraud, and that t rump is a hero, lecturing me on my scientific unworthiness.

    Go have some more scotch.

    Although  #334851 seems like something that could use some dissecting.

    #334902
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