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Then there's the God v Science question.


Forums Forums Humanism Then there's the God v Science question.

This topic contains 107 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Lausten 3 days, 6 hours ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 91 through 105 (of 108 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #302820

    Philosophicus
    Participant

    It seems like axioms are based on intuition. They’re true by definition, and no further justification can be found. People can use science and logic to justify beliefs, but emotions tell us what to value.

     

    Philosophicus

    #302831

    Sherlock Holmes
    Participant

    It seems like axioms are based on intuition. They’re true by definition, and no further justification can be found. People can use science and logic to justify beliefs, but emotions tell us what to value.

    @philosophicus

    Absolutely, this is something we both agree on clearly.

    #302832

    Sherlock Holmes
    Participant

    Between this and the thread I started about the origins of the universe, I think we’ve found the problem. You literally state that you start from some place that personally appeals to you. That’s the opposite of science. It’s the opposite direction from gaining knowledge. It’s away from the unknown and uncomfortable. Hope you’re happy there.

    @lausten

    It is not the opposite of science, if you really believe that then you are indeed truly naive and have exposed your ignorance all by yourself – give a man enough rope…

    Lausten science rests upon many axioms: “the observable world adheres to laws” and “the laws of physics we see here are the same all over the universe” and “everything we observe is a consequence of material, forces and laws” and “the laws we observe are never violated” etc.

    None of these are provable Lausten they are assumed and then the edifice we call science is constructed.

    You seem to think that the predictive success of many scientific theories proves that the axioms must be correct but it does no such thing.

     

    #302836

    Lausten
    Participant

    Well, we disagree. We can’t even use words in the same way. I saw this immediately when didn’t want to talk about definitions. I never said you can prove an axiom. How you would get that I “seem to think” that it is something that could even be thought, I don’t know.

    The predictive success of many scientific theories demonstrates that science has predictive success. It’s one of the things I like about science.

    #302855

    Player
    Participant

    Sherlock – So what has lead you to become a theist?

    #302866

    Sherlock Holmes
    Participant

    Sherlock – So what has lead you to become a theist?

    A gradual and initially grueling intellectual struggle to reconcile what I see around me with materialism and empiricism. I studied physics in my late teens and later electronics and eventually computing and had always loved science books, encyclopedias and so on. Utterly immersed in these things since childhood and very happy to explore this world. The Apollo 11 moon landing took place when I was 10 and this too was deeply immersive and stimulating.

    I’d hang out at the famous library in my home town of Liverpool and immerse myself in mathematics and physics, reading old and new books alike.

    I ridiculed “God” and of course the “Bible” exactly as many atheists do today, it was simply a given and beyond doubt that these areas were utter poppycock and everyone I met who took them seriously in any way was always poorly schooled in science, that seemed to go hand in hand.

    I never once gave these areas anything even approaching serious consideration, it was self-evident to me that these were remnants of a superstitious past, dating from before the enlightenment.

    In my very late teens however I began to undergo a deep struggle, I began to feel uncomfortable as I recognized elements of dogma and intellectual dishonesty in the views I espoused and held as beliefs, this was quite fragmented at first but began to undermine my entire world view as I realized so much of my beliefs were based in nothing more than assumption.

    The certainty I had attached to my materialism and empiricism (I did not even realize at that time what these terms meant or that I relied upon them) began to crumble, there simply was no foundation everything was assumption, assumption, assumption.

    One trigger for this was studying general relativity where long held views and systems were shown to be fundamentally wrong and a new radical theories were devised, I realized that these new theories would one day be overturned by other theories and so on, it was not possible to know for sure we had the “final” or “correct” theory – the future always meant there was a possibility of another revolutionary overthrow.

    Was space “really” curved? well yes in the sense of the mathematical system developed by Einstein and others it seemed to be, the geometric models fitted observation incredibly well, but we may get a new theory one day that is completely non-geometric that fits observation even better, so our perception of reality was always temporary and fragile.

    It was that that made me realize we know nothing really, our best efforts one day would look absurd and incorrect the next and this would never end. So my adoration of science changed and I became like a ship adrift in a huge ocean at night, no bearings the only truth being Descartes’s Cogito, ergo sum.

    That was the seed I think.

     

    #302874

    Player
    Participant

    So it not through a revelation???

    #302904

    Sherlock Holmes
    Participant

    @player

    So it not through a revelation???

    I don’t know.

    #302925

    Player
    Participant

    Sherlock just to be clear. You have not received personal revelation from god???

    #302958

    Sherlock Holmes
    Participant

    @player

    Sherlock just to be clear. You have not received personal revelation from god???

    I don’t know. I could speculate but it’s speculation, I could claim that my very interest in the subject and willingness to investigate and consider many of these questions is “God working in me” but that’s speculation.

    I’ve certainly had no absolutely convincing event, no “road to Damascus” event.

     

     

    #303103

    Player
    Participant

    Sherlock – then how is it that you became a Christian and not of another faith??

    #303290

    Susan
    Participant

    I think religion and science should ultimately be reconciled.

    #303298

    Why?

    #303299

    Lausten
    Participant

    Man of few words today CC? I’d like to hear what the new member says, so I won’t just give my answer. To flesh it out, we would need to answer questions about our own social psychology, the value of rituals and traditions, and how we pass on morals and ethics. But not everyone needs to be a PhD to participate in the discussion. Things like people enjoying getting together for shared meals and singing are valuable data.

    #303482

    Exactly, I’d seriously like to hear what he has to say.  He brought it up and I can sit still and listen to others, if they take themselves seriously enough to make a sincere effort, quality is secondary, the will to challenge – debate – learn, that’s what matters.  It’s a shame he hasn’t responded.  I hope that one word question wasn’t offensive – never know, people have such thin skins these days.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Okay Lausten and pals, for a tangent check out this video.

     

    Nick Lane: Matter and Energy at the Origins of Life – AHScon2016

    Published by ahsstudents on May 3, 2016

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av98Brx23_4

     

    Lane is an excellent clear speaker and this one gets down to the Emergence of Biochemistry from Geochemistry.

    Step one.

    I think you’ll find it fascinating, it has nothing to do with God, but everything to do with science and how it works and if you carefully listen to his story and what he has to say about his own knowledge and the challenge of serious science, where better understanding of the physical world is primary – and egos secondary – where there are no mistakes, only learning tools, and a better communal understanding is everyone’s goal.

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