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Thoughts on terminology re  Science ‘vs’ Religion


Forums Forums General Discussion Thoughts on terminology re  Science ‘vs’ Religion

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 48 total)
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  • #313546
    Lausten
    Keymaster

    But isn’t it the oldest technique of an effective narrative, to present a mystery to be revealed?  a wrong to be righted?  a threat to be averted? a problem to be solved? a challenge to be faced?

    Yes, certainly, I merely let Tee know of the term, to add to her thesis.

    The more modernized version of it (from the Dennett youtube I posted earlier today), is making everything “metaphor”. The most liberal Christian out there still won’t say God doesn’t exist, instead, they’ll say the end times are a metaphor. This allows people with widely differing beliefs to coexist in one church. It’s the fine line we’re on today where people think they still have to maintain the illusion or the whole thing will crash. I’d like to see more focus on building the replacement, but I can’t control 7 billion people.

    #313547
    Tee Bryan Peneguy
    Participant

    @3point14rat

    @timb

    We all agree on the ID v religion thing.

    I was simply making the distinction that ID refers to a specific pseudoscientific concept … that not all people who believe in religion & science can be considered ID proponents…that not all Creationists are ID proponents…and that not all ID proponents are (what we call today) Creationists.

     

    #313549
    3point14rat
    Participant

    I don’t know. Maybe there is no way to phrase the debate without calling people idiots, brainless or stupid. I should probably just give up.

    There are tons of ways of telling people they are mistaken without insulting them.

    Unfortunately, there are almost exactly that many ways of taking the message the wrong way and coming away feeling insulted.

    Again, your goal is natural and reasonable and is certainly the same goal of almost all of us here.

    ___

    I’m saying we need to keep communicating. You are saying we need to do everything we can to communicate without hurting feelings.

    It looks like we’re saying different but related things. Ideally, we can accomplish them both.

    #313553
    TimB
    Participant

    And the best narrative wins.  Maybe you could get thru to the walking dead (aka people who don’t get my way of thinking) by…  And I am being serious, starting now.  by…  delivering your message in a narrative that is targeted toward those individuals, a narrative that would be exciting for them, that would allow them to imagine themselves in the heroic actions of the protagonist accomplishing the very thing that you know they should be accomplishing.

    #313554
    Tee Bryan Peneguy
    Participant

    @lausten

    The most liberal Christian out there still won’t say God doesn’t exist, instead, they’ll say the end times are a metaphor.

    Here is the goofy part: the EARLY Church Fathers (such as Origen Adamantius, around 180-250 AD) defined much of the Bible as metaphor (he referred to a literal tree in a literal garden as “silly” and the fires of hell as symbolic)… and a significant share of Eastern Orthodox maintain this today. (There is a spectrum, some of which is geographical. The Orthodox nearer the Orient sound a bit Buddhist, the Orthodox more west sound Roman Catholic.)

    So in some ways, the “new” beliefs are simply the “old” beliefs again.

    It isn’t accurate to call the Orthodox Liberal OR Conservative … it’s much more complex. But I love to point out that metaphor is nothing new … in fact, it’s Jewish.

    #313559
    Tee Bryan Peneguy
    Participant

    Thanks guys. I appreciate your words.

    I’m gonna post separately so I can hold myself to it, but yeah … I do need to log off for a couple weeks at least, as I’m spending too much time & emotion on this and not doing other things I need to do.

    By way of short explanation… being here, on Twitter and on Quora has convinced me that my future lies in this whole topic. This is why I need to get my Baby Humanist blog up on Medium; finish my videos and eBooks; and get busy contacting publications for freelancing.

    But this is a terrifying thing. I really did almost die a few years ago. I really did have a complete breakdown. I really do have C-PTSD from religious trauma.

    I actually was a real journalist and a real author with a real career and a real life.

    But to say I lost confidence in myself is an understatement. I’m essentially housebound with general anxiety. I can’t even make a phone call. There were periods of time a few years ago where I literally did not know I was still alive. I was hallucinating, seeing things, hearing things. My sanity is being hard-won.

    So even the smallest stupid thing makes me lose it.

    But I appreciate everyone’s help here. It has helped me hone down what I want to do.

     

    I just need to

    #313563
    Lausten
    Keymaster

    But I love to point out that metaphor is nothing new … in fact, it’s Jewish.

    Good point. I’ve never quite figured out where literalism began, since Origen was very specific about metaphor, but not long after that you could get killed for thinking wrong about the cracker! These terms change over time and location. I should have clarified something about the latest incarnation of metaphor.

    Anyway, do what you need to do to take care yourself. Forums can be an escape, or an outlet, but sometimes also an addiction.

    #313564
    Lausten
    Keymaster

    Not many people are able to communicate at the level of Sam, so if he’s unable to do it, I honestly don’t know how I can.  — pi-rat

    I got kicked off an author/podcaster’s facebook page because I took the position that Sam Harris is not racist. They were making a case based on a half dozen quotes from him, which is actually a pretty good case, but it’s too isolated for me to accept it. The author himself wasn’t so much buying it, but he was saying that there are racist groups that refer to his work and use it to promote themselves, and Sam should see that and do something about it.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 4 days ago by Lausten.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 4 days ago by Lausten.
    #313567
    3point14rat
    Participant

    Tee, you have the most personality on here [all you others have plenty, she just has more.]

    It should go without saying that you need to do what’s best for you, and it’s doubtful that spending hours on here is best for anyone, so by all means take the time needed to get your real life chugging along before you come back to grace us with your presence.

    But always let us know when you’re taking breaks, or we’ll worry and wonder where you went or what happened to you.

    The best part is that if you’re looking for inspiration or need a break, pop in and get recharged.

    #314693
    Write4U
    Participant

    TimB said,

    So our big U is “mathematical in essence” could explain a lot.  (It thus seems intelligent but is actually more akin to a bit of software running.)  We might be the product of an algorithm that was a product of the Big Bang.  Fascinating.

    Yes, according to Chaos theory, mathematical patterns are a natural result of “imitial conditions”

    Chaos theory is a branch of mathematics focusing on the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions. Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary theory stating that, within the apparent randomness of chaotic complex systems, there are underlying patterns, constant feedback loops, repetition, self-similarity, fractals, and self-organization. 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

    A beautiful example is found in this entertaining video by Roger Antonsen.

    This may seem simplistic at first, but it touches on some deep implications of the mathematical nature of the universe. It takes a few viewings to grasp the underlying logic of the lecture.

    One beautiful example is Antonsen’s graphic of the intrinsic  “image of 4/3”. It is truly remarkable to see the pattern forming when 4/3 is represented as a dynamic pattern.

    #314700
    Write4U
    Participant

    We might be the product of an algorithm that was a product of the Big Bang.  Fascinating.

    And these algorithms emerge along with the emergence of matter with different values and functions.

    IMO, mathematical relationships are an essential property of  spacetime.

    David Bohm went a step further and proposed that the mathematical hierarchy in nature creates an “Implicate order” an inherent potential which may become reality and may be causal to a chronological evolutionary function, as well as “probabilistic’ creativity.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 2 days ago by Write4U.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 2 days ago by Write4U.
    #314704
    3point14rat
    Participant

    Write4U, I don’t have more than first-year college math and no physics beyond grade 12, so I know none of the math involved in stuff like Chaos Theory.

    But at it’s most basic level, the theory seems to be simply: everything follows the rules of the universe, but since we don’t know them all or only know the ones we do to less than perfectly, sometimes things happen that appear chaotic or unpredictable to us.

    Am I even close to understanding it?

    #314723
    Write4U
    Participant

    3point14rat said,

    Write4U, I don’t have more than first-year college math and no physics beyond grade 12, so I know none of the math involved in stuff like Chaos Theory.

    But at it’s most basic level, the theory seems to be simply: everything follows the rules of the universe, but since we don’t know them all or only know the ones we do to less than perfectly, sometimes things happen that appear chaotic or unpredictable to us.

    Am I even close to understanding it?

    First, let me qualify that I too am not speaking from a vast scientific background. But IMO, there are several very basic properties to the spacetime geometry.

    This is my perspective. Given that the definition of Chaos is presented as:

    Chaotic behavior exists in many natural systems, such as weather and climate.[8][9] It also occurs spontaneously in some systems with artificial components, such as road traffic.[10] This behavior can be studied through analysis of a chaotic mathematical model, or through analytical techniques such as recurrence plots and Poincaré maps.

    Chaos theory has applications in a variety of disciplines, including meteorology, anthropology,[11] sociology, physics,[12] environmental science, computer science, engineering, economics, biology, ecology, and philosophy. The theory formed the basis for such fields of study as complex dynamical systems, edge of chaos theory, and self-assembly processes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

    and a narrative: What is Chaos Theory?

    Chaos is the science of surprises, of the nonlinear and the unpredictable. It teaches us to expect the unexpected. While most traditional science deals with supposedly predictable phenomena like gravity, electricity, or chemical reactions, Chaos Theory deals with nonlinear things that are effectively impossible to predict or control, like turbulence, weather, the stock market, our brain states, and so on.

    These phenomena are often described by fractal mathematics, which captures the infinite complexity of nature.

    Many natural objects exhibit fractal properties, including landscapes, clouds, trees, organs, rivers etc, and many of the systems in which we live exhibit complex, chaotic behavior. Recognizing the chaotic, fractal nature of our world can give us new insight, power, and wisdom. For example, by understanding the complex, chaotic dynamics of the atmosphere, a balloon pilot can “steer” a balloon to a desired location. By understanding that our ecosystems, our social systems, and our economic systems are interconnected, we can hope to avoid actions which may end up being detrimental to our long-term well-being.

    Principles of Chaos

    The Butterfly Effect: This effect grants the power to cause a hurricane in China to a butterfly flapping its wings in New Mexico. It may take a very long time, but the connection is real. If the butterfly had not flapped its wings at just the right point in space/time, the hurricane would not have happened. A more rigorous way to express this is that small changes in the initial conditions lead to drastic changes in the results. Our lives are an ongoing demonstration of this principle. Who knows what the long-term effects of teaching millions of kids about chaos and fractals will be?

    Unpredictability: Because we can never know all the initial conditions of a complex system in sufficient (i.e. perfect) detail, we cannot hope to predict the ultimate fate of a complex system. Even slight errors in measuring the state of a system will be amplified dramatically, rendering any prediction useless. Since it is impossible to measure the effects of all the butterflies (etc) in the World, accurate long-range weather prediction will always remain impossible.

    Order / Disorder:  Chaos is not simply disorder. Chaos explores the transitions between order and disorder, which often occur in surprising ways.

    Mixing: Turbulence ensures that two adjacent points in a complex system will eventually end up in very different positions after some time has elapsed. Examples: Two neighboring water molecules may end up in different parts of the ocean or even in different oceans. A group of helium balloons that launch together will eventually land in drastically different places. Mixing is thorough because turbulence occurs at all scales. It is also nonlinear: fluids cannot be unmixed.

    Feedback: Systems often become chaotic when there is feedback present. A good example is the behavior of the stock market. As the value of a stock rises or falls, people are inclined to buy or sell that stock. This in turn further affects the price of the stock, causing it to rise or fall chaotically.

    Fractals: A fractal is a never-ending pattern. Fractals are infinitely complex patterns that are self-similar across different scales. They are created by repeating a simple process over and over in an ongoing feedback loop. Driven by recursion, fractals are images of dynamic systems – the pictures of Chaos. Geometrically, they exist in between our familiar dimensions. Fractal patterns are extremely familiar, since nature is full of fractals. For instance: trees, rivers, coastlines, mountains, clouds, seashells, hurricanes, etc.

    https://fractalfoundation.org/resources/what-is-chaos-theory/

    This led to the development of CDT (causal dynamical triangulation) a fractal based theory.

    Causal dynamical triangulation (abbreviated as CDT) theorized by Renate Loll, Jan Ambjørn and Jerzy Jurkiewicz, and popularized by Fotini Markopoulou and Lee Smolin, is an approach to quantum gravity that like loop quantum gravity is background independent.

    This means that it does not assume any pre-existing arena (dimensional space), but rather attempts to show how the spacetime fabric itself evolves.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_dynamical_triangulation

    There is much more, but this must be broken in smaller parts with different mathematical properties before they can be recombined into a picture of the mathematical “wholeness”

    David Bohm called this the hierarchy of Implicate Orders (Universal Potentials.)

     

    #314762

    I haven’t had much time, so been missing a bunch.  It is has been an interesting thread.  It begins with:

    INTELLIGENT DESIGN & CREATIONISM

    “Intelligent design” is a thing — a specific thing.

    I’ll admit I haven’t read a lot of stuff on the topic, though I’ve spent lots of time thinking about it.  Aside from what others say ID is, it seems to me ID is more a feeling.

    I can’t help think I’m not alone, that when I get into reading or listening to the details of biology or evolution, particularly all the stuff being discovered in the past couple decades, it overwhelms, almost a bit of vertigo at times, the complexity is unimaginable, but we have the data coming at us.

    Absolutely no way to comprehend it, scientists through much learning and training and doing can grasp it in a way we lay people can’t touch.

    Looking at masses of under-educated people –  seems to me ID is a sort of inevitable lynch pin to grasping the material world beyond our sense.  Just like Jesus is a lynch pin that’s helped countless deal with the challenging difficult lives each of us live.  Both are feelings.

    Some take it more serious than others, some don’t need any of it at all, and so on.

     

    I believe the challenge is to take back the term “Intelligent Design” by providing a more realistic definition to what ID could be.  Making “could” a key part of the lesson.

    #314764
    Write4U
    Participant

    CC-v.3 said,

    I believe the challenge is to take back the term “Intelligent Design” by providing a more realistic definition to what ID could be.  Making “could” a key part of the lesson.

    IMO, we need not take back anything,  just add a modifier, i.e. “quasi-“.

    This produces a “quasi-intelligent design” which is an accurate description of the self-organizing and self-assembly of regular patterns in nature.

    It properly removes the implication of a “motivated intelligent designer” and replaces it with an “unmotivated mathematical potential”.

    And that is a perfectly acceptable scientific term which could also be used for “unmotivated artificial intelligence”,  or quasi-intelligent information processing in the human intelligent designed Artificial Intelligences such as computers..

    As to the size and scope of complexity that quasi-intelligent functions are able to produce, Robert Hazen notes that, given enough time (14.7 billion years) and spatial surfaces (immeasurably large) and dynamic behaviors (4 fundamental forces), by the laws of probability it becomes not chance but inevitability of the exponential increase in the near infinite variations of self-organization and self-assembly of what we see today.

    If it is mathematically possible, nature will eventually produce it, given enough time.

     

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