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Your thoughts on the indoctrination (particularly religious) of children


Forums Forums Politics and Social Issues Your thoughts on the indoctrination (particularly religious) of children

Viewing 15 posts - 91 through 105 (of 112 total)
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  • #332284
    @timb
    Participant

    I’m smart enough to look up “scientism”.

    It just refers to those who have excessive belief in the power of scientific knowledge and techniques.

    And Sree, you are not smarter than Lausten.  Also, I am not sure why you are amazed that a former EMT that frequents these forums, has a decent vocabulary.

    But, even so, one’s vocabulary is only a small part of what makes up intelligence.

     

    #332309
    @sree
    Participant

    And Sree, you are not smarter than Lausten. Also, I am not sure why you are amazed that a former EMT that frequents these forums, has a decent vocabulary.

    Let’s not quarrel over opinions and deny each other of the freedom of choice. I am sure you are smart enough to know the meaning of being a member of a democratic republic even if you have discarded the principles upon which our nation is founded.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Sree.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Sree.
    #332313
    @sree
    Participant

    @drhansenjr

    And who said anything about “mind washing”? I did not. Any efforts would likely be directed at preventing future damage, not “curing” damage that may have already been done.

    Prevention? Parental indoctrination begins at birth of the baby with christening and all. It could be earlier than that if the mother smokes crack and the father has STD. By the time the children go to school, they would have become tough cookies long outside the oven of indoctrination. If you admit that you are just blowing smoke at this point in time, then you must have either a lot of money or a life to waste. Sun Tzu said: Every battle is won BEFORE it’s ever fought. No he was not dyslexic. You are reading him right even thought you will never get it.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Sree.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Sree.
    #332325
    @thatoneguy
    Participant

    A big problem with studying the negative effects of religious indoctrination is most people don’t feel traumatized by their religious experiences so the sample size is going to be small, and small sample sizes aren’t that useful in research.  It might be more interesting to look into why some people feel traumatized by religion in the first place and work from there.

    #332327
    @sree
    Participant

    It might be more interesting to look into why some people feel traumatized by religion in the first place and work from there.

    Good point. People in America traumatized by religion (i.e Christianity)  sounds awfully similar to minority folks getting a bad deal from the white American majority. Imagined victims need saviors, virtue-signaling folks who have a need for everyone to see how good they are.

    #332328
    @drhansenjr
    Participant

    @oneguy

    A big problem with studying the negative effects of religious indoctrination is most people don’t feel traumatized by their religious experiences so the sample size is going to be small.

    The research protocols will be defined by the various professional study teams who have submitted successful proposals to our foundation. While I don’t claim to have the credentials to define what those protocols might be, I don’t envision the study population consisting just of people who say they were traumatized by indoctrination. I would rather suspect that the study population would consist of people selected at random from across the spectrum without regard to any exposure to indoctrination they might have had. Given the prevalence of indoctrination in our society, it would be highly likely that a significant percentage of them will have been exposed to indoctrination. They would be asked to do two things. 1) Complete a questionnaire that asks a number of questions, some of which will reveal the extent of religious education they received and the degree to which they consider themselves religious. These would be intermingled with numerous other questions, some of which would relate to their perspective on reality and many others of which would be neutral or irrelevant to avoid any suggestion to them that religion was any aspect of the study. The would need to regard the study as one examining brain activity in response to various statements of all types. These questionnaires, identifying the subject only by number, would then be locked away an be inaccessible to investigators conducting the second part of the study. 2) A separate, independent team with no access to the questionnaire answers would place each study subject in a brain activity detection machine, probably an fMRI. They would then read each subject a series of statements, each of which would record their brain activity in response to the statements. Some statements would likely provoke some significant negative response, some a positive response, some a negligible response, and some, in reaction to a clearly nonsensical statement a different type of response altogether. For example (and these would be randomized for each subject):

    • Fairies are real
    • God exists
    • God loves me
    • There is no God. God is completely fictional
    • Faith is a good thing
    • Faith is a way of getting people to believe in nonsense that has no proof to back it up
    • Our Earth is flat
    • Our Earth revolves around the sun
    • The grass in a healthy lawn is green
    • I am an intelligent person
    • Faith is more important than reason
    • Drinking clean water is important to good health
    • I have had a personal encounter with space aliens
    • Most bread is made from wheat
    • I am a human being

    After recording the responses to such statements, the responses would be compared, probably by computer, with the questionnaire responses to see what correlations may exist between people with different perspectives on reality and existent and the activity observed in the fMRI scans. The main question, in this hypothetical study at least, would not be to specifically detect traumatization. It would be to see if there was a correlation between indoctrination and activation of parts of the brain responsible for rational critical thought — to see whether or not indoctrination results in any impairment of the capacity for rational thought and how that impairment might be manifested in brain activity.

    This just happens to be the one type of study that is running through my amateur scientist mind right now. There certainly may be others, including studies concerned with traumatization.

     

    #332329
    @drhansenjr
    Participant

    @sree #332313

    Too obtuse to warrant the time required for a response. Troll away.

    #332345
    @drhansenjr
    Participant

    @sree #332313

    Ok – I going to give this one shot, and that’s it.

    Prevention? Parental indoctrination begins at birth of the baby with christening and all…

    Yadda, yadda yadda.

    You are making assumptions, based on nothing I said, that “prevention” has something to do with direct interaction with parents. I suggested no such thing. Let’s see if your conceptual abilities will allow you to think of forms of prevention that don’t require the use of a club.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Daniel Hansen.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Daniel Hansen.
    #332370
    @sree
    Participant

    @drhansenjr

    Let’s see if your conceptual abilities will allow you to think of forms of prevention that don’t require the use of a club.

    I know you mean well. Everybody does. Have you not heard of the saying: “The path to hell is paved with good intentions?” We Americans have been suffering from this “do good” disease since WW2 and have killed and maimed millions abroad in our campaign to do good and fight evil. And now you have come up this project to fight indoctrination. What’s wrong with you?

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Sree.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Sree.
    #332388
    @drhansenjr
    Participant

    @sree #332370

    I know you mean well. Everybody does. Have you not heard of the saying: “The path to hell is paved with good intentions?” We Americans have been suffering from this “do good” disease since WW2 and have killed and maimed millions abroad in our campaign to do good and fight evil. And now you have come up this project to fight indoctrination. What’s wrong with you?

    Bloody f***ing hell! Comprehension skills!

    What “project to fight indoctrination” are you referring to? Nothing I am involved in. Unbiased research with results that will speak for themselves. Not “do good”.  Determine the facts, wherever they lead. Equating sponsorship of objective research studies with “‘a do good’ disease since WW2 [that has] killed and maimed millions abroad in our campaign to do good and fight evil.” What’s wrong with me? What’s wrong with you? Anything “do good” equates to mass slaughter? Compassion and constructive activity are clearly alien concepts for you. I am struggling not to conclude with language that would get me banned from the forum. Your comprehension skills suck. You spew inaccuracies and unfounded conclusions. You clearly couldn’t grasp what I’m working on or talking about if I rubbed your nose in it. So go hide in you comfy little self-absorbed world. I am done responding to your inanities.

    #333525
    @widdershins
    Participant

    Just saw the note on this in the other section and thought I would chime in.  I’m going to stick to the original conversation and not chime in on the recent infighting.

    Indoctrination is unavoidable in America and includes far more than religious indoctrination.  There’s also political indoctrination.  I once worked with a high school kid who was hired on a summer job internship program who was seriously indoctrinated by his father to hate women, believing that all any woman wanted from a man was his money.  The kid hated his own mother.  I’m pretty certain there was a messy divorce involved and reasonably certain that the divorce was caused by the fact that the father was a dickhead.  And one of my sons in high school had a friend who was seriously indoctrinated into conservatism, actually believing liberals to be evil demonic subhumans.

    But we’ll stick to religious indoctrination.  My own children were indoctrinated form all sides.  My mother is very religious, a member of the very fundamentalist Pentecostal religion (not the snake handler branch).  My oldest child went to church with my mom whenever he wanted until the day he came home crying because he had learned in Sunday School that his parents were going to burn in Hell for all eternity because we didn’t go to church.  The next child in line went to church services with a friend in middle school regularly.  Our neighbors were Micronesian and also very religious.  They talked to our kids about religion too, and it was one of those “only when they think we’re not listening” things.  If they weren’t such good people I would have hated them for that.  And, of course, there’s the school system, where students openly express that evolution is a lie and that magic created everything.

    Indoctrination is easy enough to combat.  You just have to teach the kids critical thinking.  Don’t just tell them what you believe, tell them why you believe it.  Walk them through the thought process and the evidence which lead you to your conclusion.  Walk them through a few examples of emotional arguments people make when they don’t have evidence.  Show them arguments which are convincing on the surface and then walk them through what’s wrong with those arguments, including the points where the arguer outright lied.  And end by telling them about all the magic listed in the Bible and all the magical things current day religious people believe and ask them, “Have you ever actually seen any real magic?  Because I haven’t.  If magic was real as the Bible claims, and still is real as the pastor claims, where is all the magic?”  My old pastor taught, as many fundies still believe, that there are real witches out there granted magical powers by Satan himself to fight the righteous.  So where are all of these wizards and witches?  Where can I meet one?  Where can I join a meeting where they tell me how to worship Satan and get these magics for myself?  Is there any evidence whatsoever that these fantastical claims are true?  The pastor was fond of quoting the Bible verse about the road to Heaven being narrow.  That means that almost everyone should have ready access to magical devil powers.  Where are they?  And what about Godly powers, which are supposed to be so much more powerful than the devil’s powers?  Do you have magical powers?  Can you walk on water?  If not, does that mean you don’t have faith the size of a grain of mustard seed?  Where are all the miracles?  Where can I see ANY magic at all?

    And end that with this little sentence, which tends to stick in the mind quite well and spell out in no uncertain terms how ridiculous these claims are.  “If you want me to believe in magic then show me some magic.”  It’s not an unreasonable request.  When my idiot cousin claimed to have a laser sight which put a black dot on the target, which I know to be impossible, I said, “Show me”.  He said it was in another town 40 miles away, so I said, “I’ll drive”.  And then there was another excuse and then another.  When I bought my house from a nice lady, proof of ownership was required.  Again, “Show me”.  So if you’re claiming that if I just follow you I will live forever after I die, a ridiculous sounding oxymoron, then show me the slightest bit of magic to prove that any magic is real and then I will be able to believe in the possibility of fantastic magic which lets me never die, but only after I die and conveniently cannot tell anyone that it worked.

    #333529

    If the assertion is made that religious indoctrination is real, ongoing, and damaging to the free-thinking curiosity that innately dwells in every young person’s mind it’s abundantly clear the statement is grounded in fact. That’s my opinion. This age-old question however is layered with custom and religious orthodoxy that by their very nature obscures and obfuscates any legitimate non-traditional consideration of this topic. A far more valid question looms in the background of this line of thinking. The seminal question is; does God exist and if so is it possible to “know” his attributes?

    Doctrine and orthodoxy poison the mind because religion has and always has had more to do with man and worldly power than a supreme creator. I would much rather see my grandson reading a playboy magazine than the bible and I mean that with total sincerity. I’ve also told him the most important thing he can do to ensure a good life for himself is to forge an ongoing connection to that eternal, self-perpetuating, and all-encompassing power of lucid energy whose dominant attribute is love.

    #333531
    @mriana
    Keymaster

    @michaelmckinny1951 The idea of a deity is a creation of the human mind, as is the religious beliefs of that deity. Religion is a means for those in power, or thought to have power, to control people. You don’t want people doing something, just say it’s a sin that makes said deity angry. For example, that televangelist, as well as other ministers, who believe homosexuality is a sin (because they don’t like it, but they place as though the human creation doesn’t like it) and when AIDS came along, that was “God’s wrath”. Works almost everytime to control those who bow to the human created deity.

    #333532
    @drhansenjr
    Participant

    If the assertion is made that religious indoctrination is real, ongoing, and damaging to the free-thinking curiosity that innately dwells in every young person’s mind it’s abundantly clear the statement is grounded in fact.

    Is it real and ongoing: Of course. Someone would have to be blind to dispute that, but to say that it is:

    damaging to the free-thinking curiosity that innately dwells in every young person’s mind it’s abundantly clear the statement is grounded in fact.

    …requires substantiation.

    Scientific criteria for “what is grounded in fact,” requires research producing objective evidence. We could  not start going around saying that indoctrination is “damaging to the free-thinking curiosity that innately dwells in every young person’s mind.” I have no evidence to back up that claim. I have as yet found no papers on the subject. That is why I think my project is so very important.

    [FYI – I was the originator of this thread some time ago, but have not had time to check in with the forum often]

    #333540
    @timb
    Participant

    CC, Science may be a cognitively produced system (what, I think, you call the Magisteria of Our Mindscape) but Science is also grounded in the physical reality of physically produced data and observations.  So I don’t see how it is equivalent to Religion, which is not grounded in physical reality at all.

    You say “Religion deals with the inside of our minds, hearts and souls…”

    Religion doesn’t “deal with the inside of our minds”, it is just produced by our mental behaviors.  Then as far as “hearts and souls”, “hearts” is just a word that refers to our emotions. Our emotions are the products of physical processes. “Souls” is just a religious term for a supernatural entity that is supposedly our eternal selves.  IOW, bullshit.

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